The NEXT generation of Physical Bitcoins...

[TitanBTC]

EDIT: This thread is intended for brainstorming about new ways to do Physical bitcoins.  I've started a separate thread for questions about http://www.TitanBtc.com in the Marketplace section.
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Physical bitcoins are absolutely the BEST way to introduce people to the concept of bitcoins.  I've personally recruited dozens, if not hundreds, of people to the bitcoin community and by far the most effective tool in winning someone over is simply handing them a physical coin.  There's just no replacement for feeling the weight of bitcoin in your hand.

However, after years of UI/UX design for web and product launches, I know that there's no such thing as "too simple".  People need to be led gently down a path to understanding and the current generation of physical bitcoins isn't quite cutting it.  Physical bitcoins, both paper and coin, have the potential to be much more than novelty or collectible.  To realize that potential, I'm convinced that this community needs to have physical bitcoins that:

1. Look and feel like real currency

2. Have ZERO barriers to entry for newcomers

3. Require ZERO pre-existing knowledge of bitcoins to acquire, use and enjoy, and

4. Are inherently secure and impossible to counterfeit.  (Physical theft is always a danger, but that's a separate conversation.)

5. Seamlessly convert to bitcoins in your wallet with a minimum of technical knowledge required.

It's a tall order, but it's an important one to fill. Physical bitcoins serve as a valuable extension to cryptocurrencies and they're a vital bridge to the many people who have yet to embrace the idea of bitcoins.  Effectively reaching this group may allow cryptocurrencies to cross the chasm that exists between early adopters and the mainstream user.  If you have investments in bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what reduces risk and increases the return on your investment.  If you believe in the principals behind bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what opens people's eyes and brings about real, revolutionary change in our financial system.


Doug Feigelson, Mike Caldwell, Rob Kohr and others have shown us what is possible.  Thank you sincerely.  Let's build on their contributions and move forward.  What's next?  What does this next generation of physical bitcoins look like and how is it technically executed?  I'm looking for feedback from this community and I'm also looking people that are ready to design it and build it as I'm putting my personal/business resources behind this project.

[TitanBTC]

Just a quick addition:  I've gotten a lot of questions from respected members of the community about how we're handling the cold storage and whether we can sell coins with the private keys included.

The short answer is that we run offline systems to sign transactions and bring them back to one of our web connected computers to broadcast to the network.  Cold storage is a service we're offering for people that don't necessarily know (or want to know) how to do it themselves.  

And yes, we're about to offer the option to forgo our cold storage service so that you can have your private key included underneath the hologram.  However, if you ever resell those coins, the new buyer will get a warning when they scan the barcode telling them what's up.  Feel free to PM me if this isn't clear, or you can email me at Tim@titanbtc.com.

[Thursday]

Mike Caldwell initially gained trust with the community by posting his personal information.  Now years later he's well respected and has earned the trust of many.  Trust is something that can only be earned with time.   That's the real value you are offering behind the physical Bitcoins; being able to trust the creator.  Mike was first out of the gate, as such I think any competitor can only be second to his.

Now who are you and why should I trust you don't have all the private addresses stored?

[videos4btc]

Now who are you and why should I trust you don't have all the private addresses stored?

Sums it up for me also. Trust is the start of everything.

[NewLiberty]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

[TitanBTC]

Mike Caldwell initially gained trust with the community by posting his personal information.  Now years later he's well respected and has earned the trust of many.  Trust is something that can only be earned with time.   That's the real value you are offering behind the physical Bitcoins; being able to trust the creator.  Mike was first out of the gate, as such I think any competitor can only be second to his.

Now who are you and why should I trust you don't have all the private addresses stored?

My name is Tim Fillmore and I don't expect you to trust me like we trust Mike.  You can't just create trust out of thin air, and if you could it wouldn't be worth anything.  

These coins were created to wordlessly communicate the elegance and beauty that the bitcoin represents.  They are also a bridge to people that don't know what bitcoins really are.  I've found that traditional coin collectors are getting as excited about these as are existing bitcoin enthusiasts.  That's what its about.  


Titan One physical bitcoin, Front


I have the utmost respect for those in the community that need time and the verification of other community members before they get on board.  No hard feelings at all.  In regards to the private keys, we can't really offer cold storage without having control over the transfer of bitcoins.  We're totally OK with people who disagree with that decision.  For those people, we're about to offer the option to have the private keys included on the coin, underneath the hologram.  

[BCB]

That's a sweet looking coin.

[smoothie]

What are your coins made of?

I couldn't find this information on your site or in your OP.

[TitanBTC]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

[BCB]

Where are you located?

[TitanBTC]

What are your coins made of?

I couldn't find this information on your site or in your OP.

These are made of a copper-nickel alloy called 230, which is commonly called "Goldine" because it looks like 14k gold.  The 5 and 10 bitcoin denominations that we'll be releasing are silver and gold respectively.

There are some more details in the specs here: http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

[tysat]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin 

[TitanBTC]

Where are you located?

Our office is at 9251 Gordon Ave. in La Habra, California.  We obviously don't do any manufacturing or process any precious metals there, though.

[smoothie]

What are your coins made of?

I couldn't find this information on your site or in your OP.

These are made of a copper-nickel alloy called 230, which is commonly called "Goldine" because it looks like 14k gold.  The 5 and 10 bitcoin denominations that we'll be releasing are silver and gold respectively.

There are some more details in the specs here: http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

Thank you for clarifying that for me. Mahalo.

[TitanBTC]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin 

I've been hearing that from a few people.  We will be offering the coins with private key included for those that don't want to mess with it.  For most though, they seem to like the peace of mind.

[smoothie]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin 

I don't mean to come off as critical but preferentially I dislike centralized systems. What happens in the case where your business gets shutdown and all information on your servers are inaccessible?

At that time no coins could change ownership given that the associated password and email associated with the coins being sold would be static. Is this right?

Is there a window of time that the original owner of the coin could change the information of the coin on your servers after the sale of the coin(s) and thus screwing the buyer?

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of my comments above as I will not pretend to completely understand your business and security models.

[TitanBTC]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin  

I don't mean to come off as critical but preferentially I dislike centralized systems. What happens in the case where your business gets shutdown and all information on your servers are inaccessible?

At that time no coins could change ownership given that the associated password and email associated with the coins being sold would be static. Is this right?

Is there a window of time that the original owner of the coin could change the information of the coin on your servers after the sale of the coin(s) and thus screwing the buyer?

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of my comments above as I will not pretend to completely understand your business and security models.

I agree with you that decentralized systems are better.  This is a closed system so that we can offer cold-storage for people that want it.  For people just getting started with bitcoins, the barrier to entry is a knowledge gap as opposed to a lack of trust.  We want these coins to attract new members to the bitcoin community and so far it's working GREAT.   In the case that we have to shut down, we will be emailing out a link to the coin's registered email addresses that allows owners to download the private keys from an encrypted connection.  I've run other web companies that use redundant server systems and we're setup so that our system will continue to operate even if we went out of business.  For those that don't want to deal with that, we'll be including the private key with the coin, just like other physical bitcoins.

As far as people scamming each other when doing third-party sales, there's not too much we can do to stop that.  People will still sell things and then never deliver.  For these coins, you can scan the back and immediately see that the coin was redeemed.  Nothing can be foolproof,  but it does give you an immediate way to say, "wait a minute, you sold me a funded coin and this one says it's already redeemed."    

[smoothie]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin 

I don't mean to come off as critical but preferentially I dislike centralized systems. What happens in the case where your business gets shutdown and all information on your servers are inaccessible?

At that time no coins could change ownership given that the associated password and email associated with the coins being sold would be static. Is this right?

Is there a window of time that the original owner of the coin could change the information of the coin on your servers after the sale of the coin(s) and thus screwing the buyer?

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of my comments above as I will not pretend to completely understand your business and security models.

I agree with you that decentralized systems are better.  This is a closed system so that we can offer cold-storage for people that want it.  For people just getting started with bitcoins, the barrier to entry is a knowledge gap as opposed to a lack of trust.  We want these coins to attract new members to the bitcoin community and so far it's working GREAT.  For those that don't want it, we'll be including the private key with the coin, just like other physical bitcoins.

As far as people scamming each other when doing third-party sales, there's not too much we can do to stop that.  People will still sell things and then never deliver.  For these coins, you can scan the back and immediately see that the coin was redeemed.  Nothing can be foolproof,  but it does give you an immediate way to say, "wait a minute, you sold me a funded coin and this one says it's already redeemed."   

Wouldn't that just be the same as looking up the address on the block chain? I get it you are trying to get new users.

Preferentially I guess that is why I am against centralized systems because then it allows manipulation to possibly occur in terms of the validity of the data.

Right now checking two or more block explorers ensures that the coins are still at the address as opposed to a single site.

I forgot to compliment you on the superb artwork. I'm impressed.

[NewLiberty]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

You might seriously consider discussing this model with legal so that it can be cleared of money transmission issues.  If you are holding the value and it is transferred from person to person, there could be some questions raised, being that you are in the US.
I am not saying that it is illegal or wrong.  It is pretty cool actually, but just a word to the wise... cya with your legal counsel.  Even if it is perfectly legal, it is good to have a legal defense fund ready and a lawyer that knows the facts and the law ahead of issues being raised.  If nothing else, set aside a portion of profit in a custodial fund for when you get around to this.

BTW, this is a nice looking piece, we should talk. 

[TitanBTC]

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin 

I don't mean to come off as critical but preferentially I dislike centralized systems. What happens in the case where your business gets shutdown and all information on your servers are inaccessible?

At that time no coins could change ownership given that the associated password and email associated with the coins being sold would be static. Is this right?

Is there a window of time that the original owner of the coin could change the information of the coin on your servers after the sale of the coin(s) and thus screwing the buyer?

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of my comments above as I will not pretend to completely understand your business and security models.

I agree with you that decentralized systems are better.  This is a closed system so that we can offer cold-storage for people that want it.  For people just getting started with bitcoins, the barrier to entry is a knowledge gap as opposed to a lack of trust.  We want these coins to attract new members to the bitcoin community and so far it's working GREAT.  For those that don't want it, we'll be including the private key with the coin, just like other physical bitcoins.

As far as people scamming each other when doing third-party sales, there's not too much we can do to stop that.  People will still sell things and then never deliver.  For these coins, you can scan the back and immediately see that the coin was redeemed.  Nothing can be foolproof,  but it does give you an immediate way to say, "wait a minute, you sold me a funded coin and this one says it's already redeemed."   

Wouldn't that just be the same as looking up the address on the block chain? I get it you are trying to get new users.

Preferentially I guess that is why I am against centralized systems because then it allows manipulation to possibly occur in terms of the validity of the data.

Right now checking two or more block explorers ensures that the coins are still at the address as opposed to a single site.

I forgot to compliment you on the superb artwork. I'm impressed.

You're right on the money about decentralized being better.  In fact, I've already got guys working on a system that addresses these issues...but its a few months out at least.  As ridiculous as it sounds, the difference between sending someone to blockchain.info, vs. having a "friendly" interface deliver the info to them is literally a make or break issue for lots of newbies.

Thank you sincerely for the compliment.  I was super excited when Lealana coins came out, as I had more litecoins than bitcoins at the time.  You did a great job with those, all around.