DefaultTrust is BAD. Very bad.

[Vod]

As it stands, it's largely a judgement system.

One that works well.

You scammed.  People noticed.  Now you can't scam again.

Worked great for TradeFortress.
Guess he won't scam anymore...

Interesting point.

If you could turn back time, how would you change the system so that wouldn't happen?  I believe most of the people that left him positive feedback had traded with him already.

[Lohoris]

Worked great for TradeFortress.
Guess he won't scam anymore...

Interesting point.

If you could turn back time, how would you change the system so that wouldn't happen?  I believe most of the people that left him positive feedback had traded with him already.

I'd remove DefaultTrust?

[Vod]

Worked great for TradeFortress.
Guess he won't scam anymore...

Interesting point.

If you could turn back time, how would you change the system so that wouldn't happen?  I believe most of the people that left him positive feedback had traded with him already.

I'd remove DefaultTrust?

I understand where you are coming from, but I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.  Maybe limit DefaultTrust to those who have done a lot of business on the forum?  That wouldn't have helped in TF's case however.

There is no better way to warn newbies of ongoing scammers than the current trust system.

[Lohoris]

I understand where you are coming from, but I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.  Maybe limit DefaultTrust to those who have done a lot of business on the forum?  That wouldn't have helped in TF's case however.

There is no better way to warn newbies of ongoing scammers than the current trust system.

Yes there is: having a base trust of -1 instead of 0 towards everyone.
After all, you shouldn't trust random people.
Then, if you manually chose to trust someone, well, it's your own action instead of a default.

[User705]

If you check his trust, you see that Theymos added him to default trust, with the comment, "Responsibly disclosed forum security flaws." so I'd imagine thats how he got on the default trust network.

But really, he had tons of feedback, being on the default trust list I don't really think gave him any additional power after he had an additional 100 people leave good feedback for him. Assuming Tradefortress actually planned the long con if it was one, the default trust wouldn't help him all that much past a certain point.

In all fairness, I believe its just as likely that he staged the hack, as it is it was actually a hack, and now he just can't pay back the Bitcoins. Either way, a lot of people are out money.

He was involved in a few small scams before, but some people like me (not on the default trust) would not risk giving him bad feedback as he would just give us badfeed back and only his would hurt.

Go look into his ripple scams and some of the other projects he was paid to do... That guy was shady as fuck!

hell just for operating his business where all he did was pay people out, meaning ponzi would have got a neg rating from me had he not been default trusted.

But whatever...

Are you saying that as a fact or a possibility?  If you were intimidated to leave negative trust for fear of retaliation isn't that about as good an indicator as any that it's not working?

[Lohoris]

Are you saying that as a fact or a possibility?  If you were intimidated to leave negative trust for fear of retaliation isn't that about as good an indicator as any that it's not working?

That's exactly what we are saying.
BTW it's a fact: I did check TradeFortress' trust, and noticed that many people who gave him a negative feedback got one back from him, and since he was in DefaultTrust they were basically marked as scammers when what they actually did was quite the opposite.
And that's why I posted this thread instead of giving him a negative feedback.

I'm not saying that theymos was actively an accomplice, but he was likely social-engineered/blackmailed into putting him in DefaultTrust, and this is the result.
The least he could do is putting an and to this INSANE system, since it only benefits the scammers.

(hint: actually if he wanted to do something more, unless I'm mistaken this forum holds a huge amount of unspent BTC from "donations"... how huge is that pile?)

[dank]

There is no better way to warn newbies of ongoing scammers than the current trust system.

Yes there is, it's very simple.  You post your feelings in the thread you assume they are scamming people in.  This gives the person you're accusing a fair chance to explain their side and their legitimacy.  This way, people get both sides of the story and can form an educated opinion on the matter.

The thing is, you guys are trying to implement a system that will stop scammers, which will never happen, it's impossible without an upbringing in moral responsibility and compassion of the individual.  Only a shift in consciousness can prevent negative intentions from being executed, only love for one another as the brothers and sisters that we are.  As it is used today it has prevented free trade from taking place on this community by creating FUD in those who see a warning sign next to anybodies name.

[Vod]

There is no better way to warn newbies of ongoing scammers than the current trust system.

Yes there is, it's very simple.  You post your feelings in the thread you assume they are scamming people in.  This gives the person you're accusing a fair chance to explain their side and their legitimacy.  This way, people get both sides of the story and can form an educated opinion on the matter.

And then what dank?  We have to follow you around to every thread you post in Newbies, warning people you have stolen close to $10,000?  Too much work.

[Lohoris]

And then what dank?  We have to follow you around to every thread you post in Newbies, warning people you have stolen close to $10,000?  Too much work.

With DefaultTrust:
- some scammers will be labeled as trustworthy, free to scam people
- people denuncing them will be labeled as scammers

Without DefaultTrust, and -1 base trust:
- everyone is "untrusted, trade with extreme caution" by default, so you should always be wary (as you actually should)
- if you actually really trust someone, you add him and you inherit his trust list

I fail to see how you are missing that yet

[Vod]

And then what dank?  We have to follow you around to every thread you post in Newbies, warning people you have stolen close to $10,000?  Too much work.

With DefaultTrust:
- some scammers will be labeled as trustworthy, free to scam people
- people denuncing them will be labeled as scammers

Without DefaultTrust, and -1 base trust:
- everyone is "untrusted, trade with extreme caution" by default, so you should always be wary (as you actually should)
- if you actually really trust someone, you add him and you inherit his trust list

I fail to see how you are missing that yet

People would soon ignore the "Trade with extreme caution!" if they saw it on every account.  It would no different than everyone having zero trust, like it is now.

[dank]

There is no better way to warn newbies of ongoing scammers than the current trust system.

Yes there is, it's very simple.  You post your feelings in the thread you assume they are scamming people in.  This gives the person you're accusing a fair chance to explain their side and their legitimacy.  This way, people get both sides of the story and can form an educated opinion on the matter.

And then what dank?  We have to follow you around to every thread you post in Newbies, warning people you have stolen close to $10,000?  Too much work.

Ha!  Like you haven't been doing that anyways?

Funny man you are.

You clearly still have not comprehended that a failure to return an investment does not indicate the deliberate intentions stealing or scamming does imply.

If we are going to have a judgment system, it needs to be based on cold hard facts, not opinions.  And I really don't see why there's a hierarchy of trusted users, what makes their opinion any more valid than anyone else as to hide the rest?

Regardless, all systems fail.

[User705]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

[Lohoris]

People would soon ignore the "Trade with extreme caution!" if they saw it on every account.  It would no different than everyone having zero trust, like it is now.

(first, "now" it is not zero for every account, because there is DefaultTrust)

And... that would be fine.

Unless you plan to physically send a guy to every user's home to check what he is doing, you can't prevent someone from hurting themselves.
You can warn them, though.

But this is not about 0 vs. -1 base trust, this is about removing this insane DefaultTrust, after it has been shown so eloquently and spectacularly how it is dead wrong.

[Lohoris]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

Reality contradicts you.
TradeFortress did just that.
pirate40 basically did the same, even if that's before this system AFAIK.
Once you reach a certain theresold of money you can steal, if you're a thief you will steal it, and that's just that.

[Vod]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

I don't make anything from having positive trust.  In the past I escrowed a couple deals for a few dimes, but that's not worth it to me anymore.

I'm not paid at all - I volunteer all my time on here.

[User705]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

Reality contradicts you.
TradeFortress did just that.
pirate40 basically did the same, even if that's before this system AFAIK.
Once you reach a certain theresold of money you can steal, if you're a thief you will steal it, and that's just that.

Let me clarify.  Right now there's a set of users who are default trust green to all newcomers.  Many conduct various BTC businesses and/or regular exchange transactions.  By virtue of their perceived trust to newcomers they get preferential treatment wether it's better exchange rates or items get sent to them 1st which is a financial benefit.  So why would anyone willingly give that up?

[dank]

I'm not paid at all - I volunteer all my time on here.

I don't buy it, vod is a paid shill trying to stir FUD imo.  He's been at it, spreading misinfo, for over a year.  Nobody could accidentally compose so many false statements on accident.

[Kouye]

Btw im now in the default list.

Confirmed, Goat got promoted by badbear.

Code:

DefaultTrust
    sirius
    theymos
        HostFat
        MagicalTux
        mikegogulski
        Luke-Jr
        dooglus
        Raize
        Maged
        Carnth
        TECSHARE
        Caesium
        dilatedPixel
        phantastisch
        OgNasty
        CanaryInTheMine
        paraipan
        John (John K.)
        danieldaniel
        pekv2
        Ukyo
        dree12
        Tomatocage
        SaltySpitoon
        ineededausername
        DeaDTerra
        BadBear
        Blazr
        xkrikl
        BCB
        PsychoticBoy
        btharper
        burnside
        Akka
        TheButterZone
        LoweryCBS
        stenkross
        Benson Samuel
        johnniewalker
        escrow.ms
        shiftybugger
        ThickAsThieves
        fluidjax
        MikeMark
        binaryFate
        dwdoc
        Tywill
        DefaultTrust
        BayAreaCoins
    HostFat
        theymos
        rb1205
        paci
        Stemby
        ziomik
        ercolinux
        diego1000
        bertani
    Maged
        theymos
        Gavin Andresen
        MagicalTux
        casascius
        tysat
        piuk
        sveetsnelda
        John (John K.)
        BadBear
        DefaultTrust
    OgNasty
        nonnakip
        DefaultTrust
    CanaryInTheMine
        Miner-TE
        Noitev
        luv2drnkbr
        Digigami
        E
        zapeta
        bitpop
        TECSHARE
        redcomet
        ipxtreme
        Philj
        os2sam
        knybe
        Trance104
        CrazyGuy
        sveetsnelda
        conv3rsion
        tlr
        bitcoin-rigs.com
        dtmcnamara
        notme
        FCTaiChi
        Mushroomized
        Maidak
        mainichi
        greeners
        dribbits
        echris1
        SaltySpitoon
        bitcoiner49er
        freshzive
        arklan
        Pistachio
        tarrant_01
        tbcoin
        ElideN
        friedcat
        Bees Brothers
        Christoban
        Stale
        af_newbie
        eroxors
        camolist
        cncguru
        PsychoticBoy
        Dabs
        mem
        Namworld
        lky_svn
        420
        mr2dave
        gektek
        johnny5
        dyingdreams
        Zillions
        phrog
        Domrada
        philipma1957
        jborkl
        RicRock
        jmutch
        MonocleMan
        CoinHoarder
        absinth
        (^_^)
        der_troll
        soy
        Ozymandias
        iluvpcs
        batt01
        xstr8guy
        MJGrae
        mobile
        nubbins
        ThickAsThieves
        hephaist0s
        BitcoinValet
        Timzim103
        Rounder
        Nemo1024
        TheXev
        Benny1985
        hanti
        ssinc
        Kaega
        finlof
        True___Blue
        elchorizo
        fewerlaws
        bitterdog
        Swimmer63
        locksmith9
        Krellan
        Spendulus
        MikeMike
        statdude
        bluespaceant
        Hiroaki
        keeron
        Bigdaddyaz
        Polyatomic
        palmface
        flowdab
        SpaceCadet
        photon
        dwdoc
        xzempt
        mackstuart
        bmoconno
        mrtg
        maxpower
        xjack
        CommanderVenus
        Plesk
        helipotte
        aurel57
        gambitv
        boyohi
        LaserHorse
        chalidore
        slashopt
        drofdelm
        canth
        cdogster
        DBOD
        DefaultTrust
        DustMite
        pixl8tr
        namoom
        blblr
        Taugeran
        arc45
        smscotten
        Cilantro
        chadtn
        kinger1331
        rumlazy
        fractalbc
        fforforest
        KyrosKrane
        bitdigger2013
        jaslo
        BorisAlt
        ASICSAUCE
        steelcave
        buyer99
        digeros
        west17m
        Trillium
        ziggysisland
        ryhan
        zac2013
        atomriot
        metal_jacke1
        Apheration
        spacebob
        2byZi
        terrapinflyer
        BenTheRighteous
        gsr18
        Paddy
    John (John K.)
        sirius
        theymos
        MagicalTux
        Maged
        BadBear
        DefaultTrust
    Tomatocage
        theymos
        Gavin Andresen
        grue
        Maged
        Kluge
        jwzguy
        tysat
        Graet
        OgNasty
        the joint
        Vod
        John (John K.)
        pekv2
        wallet.dat
        BadBear
        Blazr
        BCB
        LoweryCBS
        DefaultTrust
    SaltySpitoon
        DefaultTrust
    BadBear
        theymos
        nanotube
        casascius
        Raize
        Maged
        tysat
        zvs
        malevolent
        Korbman
        Vod
        John (John K.)
        dree12
        Tomatocage
        SaltySpitoon
        Deprived
        Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย
        Augusto Croppo
        BCB
        TheButterZone
        DannyHamilton
        Boelens
        favdesu
    escrow.ms
        Otoh
        jackjack
        Eisenhower34
        Bees Brothers
        Projects
        DannyHamilton
        Benson Samuel
        buysellbitcoin
        jasonslow
        webr3
        vitalemontea
        axorb
        Dragooon
        americandesi
        Equate
        DefaultTrust
        ashish12

EDIT : that and BCB being on badbear direct trust list made me remove badbear from mine.
Warning this post contains a tracking pixel. Or 2.

[AndrewWilliams]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

I don't make anything from having positive trust.  In the past I escrowed a couple deals for a few dimes, but that's not worth it to me anymore.

I'm not paid at all - I volunteer all my time on here.

Not so fast. You repeatedly interfered in my loan to i3lome after you turned down his loan. You regularly shoot down people who are honest without a reason.

You DO have a vested interest in keeping the Lending forum limited to you and your cronies.
The way you harassed me for months and abused the trust system by giving me three neg feedback accusing me of being a scammer without any proof, just because I made the loan to i3lome that you wouldn't.

So stop saying you don't benefit. You do benefit. You have given positive trust to shady people just because they gave you positive trust to begin with, and sided with you in your trolling escapades.

You should be embarrassed for yourself, but I'm sure you already got rid of that thing called a conscious.

[Vod]

But the current default trust people gain financially from said trust so it's not likely they will just drop it and exchange it for a bright red warning sign.

I don't make anything from having positive trust.  In the past I escrowed a couple deals for a few dimes, but that's not worth it to me anymore.

I'm not paid at all - I volunteer all my time on here.

Not so fast. You repeatedly interfered in my loan to i3lome after you turned down his loan. You regularly shoot down people who are honest without a reason.

You DO have a vested interest in keeping the Lending forum limited to you and your cronies.
The way you harassed me for months and abused the trust system by giving me three neg feedback accusing me of being a scammer without any proof, just because I made the loan to i3lome that you wouldn't.

So stop saying you don't benefit. You do benefit. You have given positive trust to shady people just because they gave you positive trust to begin with, and sided with you in your trolling escapades.

You should be embarrassed for yourself, but I'm sure you already got rid of that thing called a conscious.

Nope, I don't make a thing off of keeping the lending forum free of scammers. 

Not saying if Theymos offered to pay me I wouldn't take it....