Introduce a "Up vote & Down vote" system instead of the "Merit" system

[IsuruMaduranga]

Merit system was introduced with a good purpose; For get rid of spammers and account farmers.

The intention is noble but i think the merit system is not as good as it should be.
I present following facts to support my argument and correct me if i am wrong.  

My argument

1.Most of the scammers who adopted earlier in to the Bitcointalk forum now has higher ranked accounts. They are not being punished by the merit system. Now may be they use their higher rank accounts to farm more accounts by giving smerits.

2.I have seen lot of useless posts of higher rank members, which have been received lot of merits. (I think all of you must have noticed that.) .
Most of the people who have smerits give their smerits only to higher rank members (with the hope of getting merits back) without considering the quality of the post.
If you don't believe, Please check past posts of members with many merit points, you will find some of them have received hundreds of merits without sending at least one constructive post.  

3. I've seen many very good posts by Jr.members which haven't received merits. Most people doesn't care about newbies and Jr.members because they have no smerits to give merit back.
4. Even if someone post a very good post or a reply if it is not get noticed by a person who gives merits by considering the qulity of the post, the post is not rewarded. ( Some forums are not get noticed well)
5. There are telegram groups where people share their merits. If you don't believe please do some research.
6. 2 merits = 1 smerit rule is fundamentally slowing down the merit system.

Some people present following arguments, which i couldn't accept, to support merit system.

1. Ranking up is not essential because Bitcointalk is not for doing signature campaigns. (So then why 80% of members do it??? The funny fact is some people tell that while doing a signature campaign.  )
2. Post more posts then you will be rewarded. ( Most of us cannot post more than 3 good posts per day because we cannot be here all day.  )


My solution

1.Replacing the merit system with "Up vote & Down vote" or "Positive & Negative karma" system like in Reddit and Steemit will be the most wise decision.
2.Every member(or higher than jr.member) should be allowed to up vote or down vote a post or a reply.
3.Ranking up should be based on total votes (up votes - down votes = total votes) a member received.
3.Up voters and down voters should be visible to every one.
4.People who up voting useless posts (By spammers) should be noticed.
5.Number of Total up votes and down votes a person have per day should be limited.
6.Voting shouldn't be allowed in bounty threads.

Advantages

1. Every one can participate.
2. Even if a spammer or a account farmer up voted a post other people can down vote it. So total votes will be based on majority. Spamming will be harder.
3. Very fair. Every person can get up votes by posting good posts and get their rank up.
4. Spammers can be identified.
5. Every good post will be rewarded.

Note
 
Please correct me where i am wrong.  

Edited

Looks like most of the people don't like the idea. Some of the experienced members have pointed out faults in the proposed system. Thanks to them.  

I just wanted to create a meaningful discussion because i felt the current system is not doing well.
It seems majority of active members and experienced members like the merit system.  

Thank you all for feedback.  



 
 

[1715278417]

1715278417

[TMAN]

you are wrong

/thread

[Jet Cash]

In essence the merit system is not really about individual posts, but it is a key for a member to unlock the gate to a rank update. Thus, you need to step back and stop thinking about individual posts. The rank is intended to be an indication of the seniority and usefulness of a member, and all of his posts should count towards that.

I didn't read the whole of your book, maybe you could extract the salient points if you really want it to be considered.

[treatWy]

In my simple understanding only this words I could say:

There is no such perfect things in this world. Merit is not yet fully grown for it has been month. Everything is under construction.

[IsuruMaduranga]

you are wrong

/thread

Then please correct me sir

[sud]

On the other forum I use there is similar system, where you downvote spam and useless, off-topic posts and upvote quality ones. Points resets every 24h, and amount of those points to vote depends on the forum rank of user. It's not a bad system, but people tend to give negative points even to good posts just because they disagree with poster. On the other hand, because points are renewed every day, there is no reason to hold them.

[napoleonlouis]

And, i prefer Merit rather Up and Down. In fact, Merit can be abused by Higher Rank. So, with easier system like that. I am sure more abuse will happen.

~It's not a bad system, but people tend to give negative points even to good posts just because they disagree with poster. On the other hand, because points are renewed every day, there is no erason to hold them.

So that is example how the system abused.

[Alone055]

1.Most of the scammers who adopted earlier in to the Bitcointalk forum now has higher ranked accounts. They are not being punished by the merit system. Now may be they use their higher rank accounts to farm more accounts by giving smerits.

People giving sMerits to their own accounts are tagged by DT members upon complaining. There are threads for revealing such actions, and if you see any, you can report them their so that they can be tagged. And also, such actions wont last long as they will soon run out of Merits because of the fact that you get 1 sMerit for 2 Merits you get. So even if they keep exchanging them to each other, they will run out pretty soon.

2.I have seen lot of useless posts of higher rank members, which have been received lot of merits. (I think all of you must have noticed that.) .
Most of the people who have smerits give their smerits only to higher rank members (with the hope of getting merits back) without considering the quality of the post.
If you don't believe, Please check past posts of members with many merit points, you will find some of them have received hundreds of merits without sending at least one constructive post.

Again, if you see something suspicious, just report it. Just because some people are misusing the system, it doesn't mean the system is useless.  

3. I've seen many very good posts by Jr.members which haven't received merits. Most people doesn't care about newbies and Jr.members because they have no smerits to give merit back.

It is not always about caring, but not all Merit carrying people can read all the constructive posts every day. I know that there are a lot of constructive posts that are not Merited, but that is only because of the crowd we have in the forum these days. Many constructive posts are not seen by most of the people because of the so many replies after them. Now people don't really open up all the pages to find the merit worthy posts and merit them, but they do it with the ones they come across.

5. There are telegram groups where people share their merits. If you don't believe please do some research.

Would you mind mentioning a few? We would really like to see the discussions happening in those groups.

6. 2 merits = 1 smerit rule is fundamentally slowing down the merit system.

It is not slowing it down, but it is preventing spammers from over-using the Merits they have got after the Merit distribution. If someone could get 1 sMerit for 1 Merit received, the system would have been totally useless as anyone could use even 1 Merit to rank up all his accounts by exchanging it between them again & again.

1. Ranking up is not essential because Bitcointalk is not for doing signature campaigns. (So then why 80% of members do it??? The funny fact is some people tell that while doing a signature campaign.  )

Signature campaigns are a bonus for users. As long as someone is not running 10 to 20 accounts joining so many signature campaigns to earn money, it is not a bad thing.

2. Post more posts then you will be rewarded. ( Most of us cannot post more than 3 good posts per day because we cannot be here all day.  )

It is not important to post too many posts to get Merits. Even if you post 3 to 5 posts  a day, then at least make them constructive enough to attract some readers. And even if 2 of your posts get Merited, you are done for the day.

1.Replacing the merit system with "Up vote & Down vote" or "Positive & Negative karma" system like in Reddit and Steemit will be the most wise decision.
2.Every member(or higher than jr.member) should be allowed to up vote or down vote a post or a reply.

Yeah! So that people with hundreds of accounts start spamming the threads with up & down votes as there are not limits on creating accounts on the forum and there should be no restrictions for anyone as per your solution. I think there can be no better way of spoiling the forum than this.

5. Every good post will be rewarded.

Rewarded with useless up or down votes? That is exactly what will happen if a system like that is implemented where every single person is allowed to contribute. It will be an heck of a system for spammers to play around the forum. The forum will become the play-ground of spammers.

[TheUltraElite]

you are wrong

/thread

Then please correct me sir

You understand the fact that this forum is filled with trolls and people who dont give a shit about others?

Do you know that this forum is full of shitposters who are trying their best to get some merits by making threads like this and hoping some kind-hearted merit source to rain some merits on them?

Do you know that the forum is plagued by shitposters from every corner of this world who try to get into signature campaigns just for a few bucks everyday?

An upvote/downvote system will be abused to everyone who makes a radical comment on another persons thread and thus have a bad effect on the forum environment.

[IsuruMaduranga]

1.Most of the scammers who adopted earlier in to the Bitcointalk forum now has higher ranked accounts. They are not being punished by the merit system. Now may be they use their higher rank accounts to farm more accounts by giving smerits.

People giving sMerits to their own accounts are tagged by DT members upon complaining. There are threads for revealing such actions, and if you see any, you can report them their so that they can be tagged. And also, such actions wont last long as they will soon run out of Merits because of the fact that you get 1 sMerit for 2 Merits you get. So even if they keep exchanging them to each other, they will run out pretty soon.

2.I have seen lot of useless posts of higher rank members, which have been received lot of merits. (I think all of you must have noticed that.) .
Most of the people who have smerits give their smerits only to higher rank members (with the hope of getting merits back) without considering the quality of the post.
If you don't believe, Please check past posts of members with many merit points, you will find some of them have received hundreds of merits without sending at least one constructive post.

Again, if you see something suspicious, just report it. Just because some people are misusing the system, it doesn't mean the system is useless.  

3. I've seen many very good posts by Jr.members which haven't received merits. Most people doesn't care about newbies and Jr.members because they have no smerits to give merit back.

It is not always about caring, but not all Merit carrying people can read all the constructive posts every day. I know that there are a lot of constructive posts that are not Merited, but that is only because of the crowd we have in the forum these days. Many constructive posts are not seen by most of the people because of the so many replies after them. Now people don't really open up all the pages to find the merit worthy posts and merit them, but they do it with the ones they come across.

5. There are telegram groups where people share their merits. If you don't believe please do some research.

Would you mind mentioning a few? We would really like to see the discussions happening in those groups.

6. 2 merits = 1 smerit rule is fundamentally slowing down the merit system.

It is not slowing it down, but it is preventing spammers from over-using the Merits they have got after the Merit distribution. If someone could get 1 sMerit for 1 Merit received, the system would have been totally useless as anyone could use even 1 Merit to rank up all his accounts by exchanging it between them again & again.

Some people present following arguments, which i couldn't accept, to support merit system.

1. Ranking up is not essential because Bitcointalk is not for doing signature campaigns. (So then why 80% of members do it??? The funny fact is some people tell that while doing a signature campaign.  )

Signature campaigns are a bonus for users. As long as someone is not running 10 to 20 accounts joining so many signature campaigns to earn money, it is not a bad thing.

2. Post more posts then you will be rewarded. ( Most of us cannot post more than 3 good posts per day because we cannot be here all day.  )

It is not important to post too many posts to get Merits. Even if you post 3 to 5 posts  a day, then at least make them constructive enough to attract some readers. And even if 2 of your posts get Merited, you are done for the day.

My solution

1.Replacing the merit system with "Up vote & Down vote" or "Positive & Negative karma" system like in Reddit and Steemit will be the most wise decision.
2.Every member(or higher than jr.member) should be allowed to up vote or down vote a post or a reply.

Yeah! So that people with hundreds of accounts start spamming the threads with up & down votes as there are not limits on creating accounts on the forum and there should be restrictions for anyone as per your solution. I think there can be no better way of spoiling the forum than this.

5. Every good post will be rewarded.

Rewarded with useless up or down votes? That is exactly what will happen if a system like that is implemented where every single person (even a very fresh users with 0 posts and activity) is allowed to contribute. It will be an heck of a system for spammers to play around the forum. The forum will become the play-ground of spammers.

1. Anyone cannot log in to 100 accounts from one IP address.
2. I don't mention any telegram group because it is outside this forum. People have right to do anything outside this forum. But i know few.
3. The proposed system is not perfect. But it can make better by discussing.
4. We can allow voting to ranks higher than Jr.member or member.

[fxbit]

People who are complaining about signature campaign participant spamming thread when they themselves wearing one should give exemplary action by removing their signature and any links in their signature.

[yojodojo21]

mate you can consider OP as helpful decision, but we are talking about Originality, if we are going to adopt your decision by voting up and Down and Copying or Imitate Features From Steemit or Reddit Then Bitcointalk is not That Unique. This is just my Idea. On Reddit, without having Exact Karma and Date you cannot Post in different Sections and Reddit is For Broad Discussion While Here In Forum The Idea of Crypto is Discuss In General. And in Steemit you have to buy Steem Power in order For you to vote if i'm not wrong. The best Thing about merit is you can give it to a certain Person who has a certain quality and constructive post no need to buy some powers. all in all, Let The Superiors Decide.

[leonair]

And an another issue about the 'Merit System' imperfections that needs to be change in their own perspective(I hope you get a lot of Merits in this thread of yours)

Let's say your arguments, solutions and advantages are all implemented in the forum improvements but still it will not solve the problem of spammers and shit posters because the main problem of multiple accounts(for me) are the Signature Campaigns(I'm currently joined but not abuser) so maybe the best thing that Theymos should do is to eradicate the Signature Campaign if 80% of the forum members do it(where did you get that though)

What was the purpose of Merit System in this forum?
- is it to reduce spammers/shit posters?
- is it to get good quality post from forum members?
- is it to prevent new members to rank up?
- is it for the high rank members to capitalize the benefits?
- and all other things...

Sorry for my Criticism, Your intention is good. But there is no perfect 'System' there are always flaws but for as long as the good outweighs the bad then I'm good with it. People who are working in this forum to make it great is not that much(maybe that's the smallest possible problem IMO)

[Alone055]

1. Anyone cannot log in to 100 accounts from one IP address.

They can, as long as their ip address is not banned from the forum for scamming or something like that. And even if the ip is banned, if it is not a perma-ban, it can be removed after paying a small amount of Bitcoins.

2. I don't mention any telegram group because it is outside this forum. People have right to do anything outside this forum. But i know few.

If you think that people have the right to do the wrong things in the forum just by discussing them outside the forum then you shouldn't have mentioned that point in your post. It doesn't matter if where they discuss it, if it is done in the forum after all the discussion is done, then I don't think anyone would think or say "They have the right to do it outside the forum.", because they plan it outside, but they do it inside. So that quite doesn't make sense IMO.

3. The proposed system is not perfect. But it can make better by discussing.

No offense, but I really doubt that. The merit system is not just implemented after a day of discussion. There must have been some really deep thoughts and discussions behind that, and I really believe it is doing what it is intended to, and there is no need of change right now.

4. We can allow voting to ranks higher than Jr.member or member.

You said it yourself that there are spammers having accounts in higher ranks from before the Merit system. So that doesn't make it stop even if members above Jr. rank are allowed to do so. We know there are still plenty of accounts in higher ranks which don't really deserve to be there. But right now, they are stopped where they were at the implementation of Merit system. Proposing a system of up vote & down vote will make them useful for them again.

[jemarleon]

The intention is noble but i think the effect of the merit system is negative.

The effect of the merit system is very good for our community, I think this is about sMerit that is quite unfair.

1.Most of the scammers who adopted earlier in to the Bitcointalk forum now has higher ranked accounts. They are not being punished by the merit system. Now may be they use their higher rank accounts to farm more accounts by giving smerits.

Yes its true and I think admins know this before they work this system, they cant solve it easily so they create a thread to report those high rank spammer and abusers.

2.I have seen lot of useless posts of higher rank members, which have been received lot of merits. (I think all of you must have noticed that.) .
Most of the people who have smerits give their smerits only to higher rank members (with the hope of getting merits back) without considering the quality of the post.
If you don't believe, Please check past posts of members with many merit points, you will find some of them have received hundreds of merits without sending at least one constructive post.  

Yes all of us notice this shits but we cant do anything about what other people wants to merit.
I think those people are not expecting to get some merits by doing that aside from (if it is their close friend).
As I said we cant control them we cant do anything about it.

3. I've seen many very good posts by Jr.members which haven't received merits. Most people doesn't care about newbies and Jr.members because they have no smerits to give merit back.

I strongly agree with this that there are many good post from lower ranks but I dont agree with that reason that they are expecting a merit back in return.

4. Even if someone post a very good post or a reply if it is not get noticed by a person who gives merits by considering the qulity of the post, the post is not rewarded. ( Some forums are not get noticed well)

Ive seen many good post that is not get merited or some of them get small amount of merits. I agree with this I can suggest that they must have better look on this posts to give merits.

5. There are telegram groups where people share their merits. If you don't believe please do some research.

Yes there are some group like this, just think that those people will not win at the end of the fight.

6. 2 merits = 1 smerit rule is fundamentally slowing down the merit system.

Yes your right the reason of this is to control the merit system, if not the merit system will be useless at the end.

Your solution will just remove all the purpose of merit system, remember that all of this farmers can also make a little good post and they will just spam accounts again and again just to upvote their post.
Also the merit system is already implemented, it not fair again to some people here that works hard for merit and you will just remove it that easy.

I think it is better to improve the merit system, Im good with this system the only thing I see that is unfair in this system is that sMerit system it can also cause a spam of accounts of high rank shitposter and farmers.

[GDragon]

oopps merits hunter again. You are like changing the whole system even if the system work efficiently? Maybe, you can recommennd a little without changing the system. Adding a thing to make it better than changing a thing to start again in the beginning.

[athanz88]

I just want to say, rank is not a human right but it is a privilege which you got after you do something good for the forum. For the past system, the fact that they are here long before the merit come is a good thing for the forum, some of them are great person but some are not and did spamming the forum, but it is in the past now and you can not change it. It is just the same like you are blaming people because they are into bitcoin way gaster than you and you join when the price is already 10k.

Even if you can not login into this forum with many accounts (100 you said which i dont know if its true or not or you just said it based on your logic without valid data), there are lot of disadvantages with down voting system, one of them is a group of member who holds grudge against each other. It will just create a war in here. And you may face increasing difficulty to join in bounty and sig (because you are so persistent about ranking to get dollars) because other group will make sure people who are not in their group to get alot of down vote and cannot join bounty or sig.

3. The proposed system is not perfect. But it can make better by discussing.

Same, merit is not perfect, it can be better by discussing, but for now the solution is already discussed, which is to add more merit sources and give it time.

p.s. if you like so much about reddit and steemit system, why dont you play there?

[RYXES]

If it was up and down votes it would be very chaotic and people would end up arguing about why their post got downvoted, look on Reddit for example. It is pure madness and very unprofessional.

As much as it is more of a democratic approach it would be horrifically abused.

[Baoo]

4. Even if someone post a very good post or a reply if it is not get noticed by a person who gives merits by considering the qulity of the post, the post is not rewarded. ( Some forums are not get noticed well)

Good post?  what do you mean?
High quality of post + good opinion ( attracts the attention of the reader) = Merit point.
High quality of post + bad opinion = No merit point.
Low quality of post + good opinion = No merit point.

5. There are telegram groups where people share their merits. If you don't believe please do some research.

Well, the scammers are everywhere, and thanks to merit system, many of them were eliminated and punished  ( through negative trust  and perma banned) .

1.Replacing the merit system with "Up vote & Down vote" or "Positive & Negative karma" system like in Reddit and Steemit will be the most wise decision.

The merit system is going well, not necessarily what exists in Reddit, It must be in Bitcointalk, there is a complete difference between them.

1.Replacing the merit system with "Up vote & Down vote" or "Positive & Negative karma" system like in Reddit and Steemit will be the most wise decision.
2.Every member(or higher than jr.member) should be allowed to up vote or down vote a post or a reply.
3.Ranking up should be based on total votes (up votes - down votes = total votes) a member received.
3.Up voters and down voters should be visible to every one.
4.People who up voting useless posts (By spammers) should be noticed.
5.Number of Total up votes and down votes a person have per day should be limited.
6.Voting shouldn't be allowed in bounty threads

No and thanks for the effort.

[Vod]

2. Even if a spammer or a account farmer up voted a post other people can down vote it. So total votes will be based on majority. Spamming will be harder.

How much does it cost to make an account?  Nothing
What kind of email validation do we use?  Nothing

The majority will be the account farmers and spammers.   The legitimate users like myself would be drowned out.

People would use their army of accounts to down vote their competition.  :/