Bitcoin´s can be illegal i USA or sweden

[poddi]

Recently read this in a swedish newspaper that bicoin can be banned in USA and sweden for they fear that drugs can get paid with it.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article13369373.ab link in swedish but this is BAD news for bitcoin.

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[flatSoda456]

bitcoins aren't going anywhere

[Bitweasil]

In other news, the vast majority of the drug purchases in the United States are made with the US Dollar!  BAN IT!

I'm guessing the vast majority of drug purchases in Sweeden are made in krona!

Clearly, these currencies are dangerous, are used to purchase illegal materials, and should be banned.

(same logic applies - just because something can be used for illegal means doesn't mean that the something should be illegal)

[codler]

Very very bad news if this happens =/

[Cidsor]

Hmm, Swedish politics have always been a bit strange and unpredictable. I'm not really sure if it'd be illegal in Sweden or the US. Both countries do have drug problems, but making a currency illegal because of it? I kind of doubt it, but if it does happen I hope enough people know about bitcoins to make it a case of the size of piratebay

[johnyj]

If it really gets banned, the ban must be origined from bankers, not police. Bankers have dominate power in sweden.

I just think how is that technically possible, which protocol/port bitcoin transaction is using?

[Atdhe]

If Bitcoin will be used more, for sure de iure ban will come and BS like drugs will be a reason.
De facto they can not do a lot. But 99% of merchants do not know what is going on, so they will not use Bitcoin as transaktion currency, unless it will be a big surplus for them.

The surplus can be either hyperinflation of other currencies or tax evasion.

[riX]

There's no way it will be banned (here) in Sweden, our legal system does not work like that
The article linked is published in Aftonbladet, which is the largest newspaper in Sweden, but are known to exaggerate and sometimes even make stuff up, in my opinion more so than others.

[Atdhe]

There's no way it will be banned (here) in Sweden, our legal system does not work like that
The article linked is published in Aftonbladet, which is the largest newspaper in Sweden, but are known to exaggerate and sometimes even make stuff up, in my opinion more so than others.

It does not have to be banned by some new law. Existing laws that defined Sweden central bank can be used.
We have seen many micropayment options that were shut down by central banks.
Modern state lives from money-monopoly.

[riX]

It does not have to be banned by some new law. Existing laws that defined Sweden central bank can be used.
We have seen many micropayment options that were shut down by central banks.

Which existing law would that be? Please link - the entire Swedish law can be read at https://lagen.nu.

I'm not aware of any micropayment option shut down in Sweden.

[Atdhe]

I do not know your language, so I can not quote, but central banks around the world do not differ that much. I have MSc. in macroeconomics and I can only show what I see.

To be short, the central bank institutions do not differ that much. I know that Czech national bank used existing law together with some bullshit about gambling to shut down "I like q" micropayment system, that was independent (but centralized).

The probable scenario can be that they will say some law says that bitcoin is a threat for national economy or money circulation or whatever (there will be in central bank law statement like "central bank must control money supply", or "central bank must quarantee safe deposits", or anti-laundering laws can be applied etc). The central bank Then maybe someone will take it to the court and even when court will say it is legal, it will take some time and uncertainity and in between politicians will come with new law that will be aimed directly at the new currency.

This happens over and over.

The key is that it is not important if something is or is not against some law; but that some law will be used against any threat of state. And by court does not win the one who is right but the one that has power. Independent currency needs power first. Huge power.

[riX]

There is a law stating that the central bank (Riksbanken) is the only one that has the right to issue banknotes and coins (Art. 14 @ http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_PageExtended____6326.aspx).
An unofficial translation of "The Sveriges Riksbank Act (1988:1385)" is available at http://www.riksbank.se/upload/Dokument_riksbank/Kat_publicerat/Broschyrer/riksbankslagen_2003.pdf.

There is a law regulating the issuance of electronic currency (https://lagen.nu/2002:149), but the definition there does not apply to bitcoin.

elektroniska pengar: ett penningvärde som representerar en fordran på utgivaren och som, utan att finnas på ett individualiserat konto, är lagrat på ett elektroniskt medium och godkänns som betalningsmedel av andra företag än utgivaren.

My translation:
electronic money: a value of money representing a claim on the issuer and which, without existing on an individualized account, is stored on a electronic medium and are approved as a money by other companies other than the issuer.

An interesting side note is the following quote:

The Riksbank shall not extend credit to or purchase debt instruments directly from the Government, other public bodies or institutions of the European Union.

This is a big difference between the e.g. the U.S. central bank and the Swedish. I don't know how the Czech national bank works.

[Atdhe]

US central bank is different to rest of the world. Central banks do much more than issuing money. They control banks in given country for example.

Listen, we do not have to think about artificial world. There is a real world. My websites are not against any law, but the law is used against them. That is my point. (My servers are in Sweden btw., but even in Sweden it is not bulletproof).

The bottom line is that independent currency will destroy financial system as we know. And current states rely on current financial systems.

No system will give up. This system is based on law. They will use law against decentralised currencies. The state NEEDS money supply. Monetary policy (=money supply) is part of economical policy (together with fiscal policy). Fiscal policy is weaker and weaker. All the headlines now about recovery and crisis are about monetary policy, about money supply manipulation. If they have no control over money, they can not manipulate anything. They will lose power at the second. It will not happen without battle.

[vergil]

This is one of the many things I hate about living in the US. The government gets so hellbent over banning things and keeping the public drug-free, yet we still have huge problems with it and banning BitCoin would probably hardly do anything at all... the real drug market is what goes on on the streets, we all know that.

[Interneting]

I know 3 crack heads who are looking forward to making BTC deals in the streets with android apps in the future. Clearly the government should step in as soon as possible so that cash is used instead.

[Corner]

Even if BTC gets outlawed, there's a safety in numbers. When there are millions of us, we cannot be stopped.

The old system of national states is genuinely corrupt and needs to be replaced. Until now, nothing has been powerful enough to offer an alternative. Cryptocurrencies do.

[Atdhe]

I know 3 crack heads who are looking forward to making BTC deals in the streets with android apps in the future. Clearly the government should step in as soon as possible so that cash is used instead.

Government fucked up whole drug war, government fucked up money supply and now they have to step in? Fortunately they can not unless central banks start to buy Bitcoins as their reserves (this can possibly happen).

I think most people do not understand what independent currency is creating and I bet most of them, even at this forum will NOT like it.

Drugs, weapons, people, organs... everything is going to be just goods and they will be traded in future independent currency.

It is not the problem of any currency itself, it is problem of human nature. Independent currency will only reveal, how pitiful people are. We do not want to look into mirror, but it is time to face it.

This is why we need independent currency -> to avoid any government. And the currency must have such platform, where it is impossible for government to "step in". We have to thank to every merchant, that wants to use Bitcoins even when it is a drug dealer.

[dancupid]

It's impossible just to ban anything - the law works on the basis of precedent. In order for a law to have validity someone has to be arrested, tried and convicted, and remain convicted after several appeals.
Since using bitcoins for moral, normal purposes doesn't meet the normal criteria for immoral or illegal activity, it would be very difficult for a conviction to hold. There would be a huge outcry. Someone can only be convicted if they are breaking a law that the majority believe is inherently immoral. Simply using bitcoin is not enough. If people buy something that the public at large believe is immoral (like drugs or child pornography) then the individual will be convicted for this crime - the use of Bitcoin will merely be an added layer to the story, but it is their actual crime that will dominate the story.
Any bitcoin user who uses bitcoins to buy socks or food will never be arrested - the public outcry would be too great.

[Atdhe]

It's impossible just to ban anything - the law works on the basis of precedent. In order for a law to have validity someone has to be arrested, tried and convicted, and remain convicted after several appeals.
Since using bitcoins for moral, normal purposes doesn't meet the normal criteria for immoral or illegal activity, it would be very difficult for a conviction to hold. There would be a huge outcry. Someone can only be convicted if they are breaking a law that the majority believe is inherently immoral. Simply using bitcoin is not enough. If people buy something that the public at large believe is immoral (like drugs or child pornography) then the individual will be convicted for this crime - the use of Bitcoin will merely be an added layer to the story, but it is their actual crime that will dominate the story.
Any bitcoin user who uses bitcoins to buy socks or food will never be arrested - the public outcry would be too great.

the US/UK law is based on precedent... continental law is different

besides that: it is possible to ban anything; in the Slovakia for example they just banned online promotion of online gambling and minimum fine is 20K EUR; the ban is valid until some higher court says it is invalid and it can take years

the other side is that this law in unenforceable like almost every new law about internet; simply no one understands new reality

the third part is that such law creates atmosphere of something illegal (even when it is not) and most people are scared to touch it [why are torrents not used more? why there are no links to torrents from official movie servers etc? it is only because there is hype about illegality of such torrents and big webmasters simply do not want to piss off people with power; readers of movie servers would be happy for links to movies]

SO yes, people using BTC would probably never be arrested, but they can simply avoid that currency "deliberately" = bc of fear.

[dISh]

how would they prove u trade bitcoins? unless u need to link it to real accounts i doubt there's anything to fear.