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Author Topic: so.... what country ISNT in debt?  (Read 7517 times)
godofal
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July 24, 2011, 03:35:32 PM
 #1

seriously, *every* country you hear from are in major debt, every government is talking bout spending less money and shit
so, there must be a country (or big bizniz) that has a gazillion money lended to everyone right? all that loans has to come from somewhere...

where does all the money come from?!

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July 24, 2011, 03:51:41 PM
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no answer so far, nice...Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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July 24, 2011, 04:01:14 PM
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seriously, *every* country you hear from are in major debt, every government is talking bout spending less money and shit
so, there must be a country (or big bizniz) that has a gazillion money lended to everyone right? all that loans has to come from somewhere...

where does all the money come from?!

Insurance and pension funds are generally considered the largest pools of capital around.

Added to this are a new animal, sovereign wealth funds. Funds of governments that not only are not in debt, but have been in surplus so long that they have a corpus. Oil exporters mainly, but singapore and china also have large funds.

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July 24, 2011, 04:02:09 PM
 #4

give it time Cheesy
25 minutes isnt thát much, can't expect the know-it-alls (positively this time!) to be online 24/7

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July 24, 2011, 04:09:29 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position

The difference between a country's external financial assets and its liabilities (also referred to as external debt) is the net international investment position (NIIP).[1] Both public and private held external assets and liabilities by legal residents of the respective country are hereby taken into account. [2]

A country's international investment position (IIP) is a financial statement setting out the value and composition of that country's external financial assets and liabilities.

International Investment Position = domestically owned foreign assets - foreign owned domestic assets.

[list follows]
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July 24, 2011, 04:11:57 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Upon seeing this thread, I just dug up the above link.  Wow.  Some pretty incredible figures there... and wtf, Luxembourg?!

I don't really know how these numbers relate to the whole picture though, so I too await an informed response Smiley
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July 24, 2011, 04:16:14 PM
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Thanks spruce; that makes a bit more sense. That chart explains a few things about New Zealand (where I live).  Argh Sad
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July 24, 2011, 04:54:43 PM
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The debt of "a country" isn't really of interest to the individuals of that country. It's not your problem if your neighbor has shares in a company that is in debt to an overseas entity.

To a taxpayer, the relevant figure is public (i.e. government) debt, because that's what the taxpayer pays interest on, and in theory might be called upon to repay the principal. Here's a map of Public Debt as a percent of GDP for 2009/10 from Wikipedia. Green is good, brown is bad. Basically, Europe and North America are in a bad position, plus Japan and a sprinkling of other countries.

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July 24, 2011, 07:30:15 PM
 #9

another link
GDP vs Debt country map, it's a bit outdated so numbers are greater now but still relevant
http://www.creditloan.com/blog/2009/06/05/gdp-vs-national-debt-by-country/
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July 25, 2011, 05:05:35 AM
 #10

Sovereign debt is mostly owed to bankers. In the U.S. it's certain privileged investment banks called "primary dealers" who first buy Treasuries before selling them off, often to other banks and very often to the The Federal Reserve our central bank).

Bankers control the entire system.  This is the system that Bitcoin routes around and competes with.

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July 25, 2011, 06:13:54 AM
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Could someone make a map which would include an additional "continent" consisting of the biggest banks and corporations?

just my .02 btc
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July 25, 2011, 10:00:11 AM
 #12

vatican?
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July 25, 2011, 10:36:59 AM
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vatican?
Vana'diel  Cheesy

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July 25, 2011, 11:03:22 AM
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Its a really interesting question.

Take a look at this:

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

In the: Richest Countries by 2008 GDP Per Capita
Greece and Spain, now in deep trouble are on place 35 & 38.

But I would say that countries like Norway and Kuwait with lots of oil and no national dept are among the richest.

Though Norways oil is drying out now.



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July 25, 2011, 02:58:08 PM
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China

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July 26, 2011, 01:34:35 AM
 #16

Bitcoin country isn't in debt Cheesy

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July 26, 2011, 10:55:12 AM
 #17

Knowing just external debt will not tell us much as it is only one side of the equation.

Here is an example from Norway (taken from http://www.norges-bank.no/en/price-stability/government-debt/why-government-debt/):

Quote
Why government debt?
On the whole, the Norwegian government's net asset position is positive. This means that total assets exceed total debt. Government assets include deposits in Norges Bank, investments made by the Government Pension Fund Global, shares in domestic enterprises, lending and direct investment in state banks, state-owned enterprises and state limited companies. Government debt consists primarily of government bonds and Treasury bills.

In most countries, the government must issue government securities in domestic or foreign currency in order to have funds to repay existing debt which falls due and to finance government activities. Since the Norwegian government's net asset position is positive, the government could repay all government debt without raising new loans.

The Norwegian government nevertheless chooses to raise new loans by issuing Treasury bills or government bonds because:

The government must have a certain liquidity reserve in order to be able to cover daily payments. There are wide daily fluctuations in outgoing and incoming payments in government accounts, and it is difficult to calculate the size of these flows in advance. This is particularly the case for incoming tax payments. Adjustments in the government borrowing program can only partially smooth these fluctuations. The aim is therefore to ensure that the normal cash reserves do not fall below NOK 20-25 billion.
Government borrowing affects the banking system's total deposits in/borrowing from Norges Bank. The implementation of the government borrowing program may therefore be adjusted to some degree to Norges Bank's operations to manage liquidity in the banking system.
Another objective of government borrowing is to maintain and develop smoothly functioning and efficient financial markets in Norway. By issuing government bonds and Treasury bills, the government provides a risk-free yield curve for investments with a maturity of from about one month to about 10 years. Another important aspect of government securities is that they increase liquidity in the Norwegian capital market. Without the supply of government securities, the markets would be less efficient. Other loans and debt instruments are often priced in relation to government loans. Thus, government loans provide a good overview of the Norwegian securities market.
The objective of the government's debt management is to ensure that the government has adequate liquidity at the lowest possible cost. The government's interest income and overall exposures due to changes in interest rate levels must also be taken into account when evaluating borrowing costs.

And you ask where the money comes from? That depends on what country you are looking at.
For example the US's foreign creditors are mainly China and Japan, but the biggest part comes from the Fed itself where the debt is tied to intergovernmental holdings like social security (very bad idea IMO).
Other countries might have their dept from the world bank, other countries, bonds or private institutions. And don't forget how debt is treated in the banks themselves in terms of cash reserve ratio.

If you always think in categories you will miss the bigger picture.
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iamzill
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July 26, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
 #18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position

The difference between a country's external financial assets and its liabilities (also referred to as external debt) is the net international investment position (NIIP).[1] Both public and private held external assets and liabilities by legal residents of the respective country are hereby taken into account. [2]

A country's international investment position (IIP) is a financial statement setting out the value and composition of that country's external financial assets and liabilities.

International Investment Position = domestically owned foreign assets - foreign owned domestic assets.

[list follows]

Country != nation.

I'm not responsible for the foreign debts of random strangers on the street, just as foreign powers cannot take my assets to cover the debts of my country. [/list]
tvbcof
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July 26, 2011, 07:00:57 PM
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Country != nation.

I'm not responsible for the foreign debts of random strangers on the street, just as foreign powers cannot take my assets to cover the debts of my country.

You sound pretty confident of that.  I'm not so certain.  You probably don't live in Afghanistan or Iraq.

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July 26, 2011, 07:19:11 PM
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For example the US's foreign creditors are mainly China and Japan, but the biggest part comes from the Fed itself where the debt is tied to intergovernmental holdings like social security (very bad idea IMO).


Mathmaticly, one department of the federal government owing money to another department of the federal government is comparable to your left pocket owing money taken from your right pocket.  For all practial purposes, that money is a fiction even when one doesn't consider the underlying fiat currency to, itself, be a fiction.  There is no SS trust fund, as all FICA taxes collected for SS that are not immediately sent back out to pay current beneficiaries is used to buy US Treasury Notes.  Which is then used to pay the current bills of the federal government.  Thus, when the day comes that the cost of beneficiaries of SS exceed the revenue from FICA taxes, congress must raise taxes on the working population to pay for the differences.  And they will no longer have the ability to finance current government largess on SS future payouts.  Thus, SS is, by definition, the largest Ponzi scheme in the history of this country.  Maybe the world.  By the time that this happens, the cost of refinancing the federal debt will have become so burdensome as to make the option of raising taxes to pay for SS beneficiaries a practical and political impossibility.  So the only options that will exist for congress is to either default and repudiate all or part of the federal debt, or simply inflate the currency to the point that the SS checks (which cannot practically maintain cost of living increases at the same time) are worth less then the new revenue provided by FICA taxes.  Of course, such inflation rates tend to be a vicious cycle unto themselves.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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