Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust on Bloomberg

[windjc]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

If you are going with the RIDICULOUS assertion that they are doing this to dump their coins you are bat***t crazy.

These guys are worth 64 million+. They have invested $2 million into bitcoin. They are creating a ETF to profit and spread accessibility to the BTC marketplace.

End. Of. Story.

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[theonewhowaskazu]

I do not have much experience with these type of documents but I find it interesting the following language in the proposal. I do not think this is typical verbage on most ETF applications, although I could be wrong. It seems to spell some of the future obstacles for Bitcoin in the U.S.

But it also shows you what it may mean if an ETF is approved and remains alive going forward:

    The Trustee will terminate and liquidate the Trust if one of the following events occurs:

•      the Trustee is notified that the Shares are delisted from the [EXCHANGE] and are not approved for listing on another national securities exchange within five business days of their delisting;

•      Shareholders acting in respect of at least 75 percent of the outstanding Shares notify the Trustee that they elect to terminate the Trust;

•     60 days have elapsed since the Trustee notified the Sponsor of the Trustee’s election to resign and a successor trustee has not been appointed and accepted its appointment

•    the SEC determines that the Trust is an investment company under the Investment Company Act of 1940 and the Trustee has actual knowledge of that determination;

•     the CFTC determines that the Trust is a commodity pool under the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936, as amended (“CEA”), and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;

•     the Trust is determined to be a “money transmitter” under the regulations promulgated by FinCEN under the authority of the US Bank Secrecy Act and is required to comply with certain FinCEN regulations thereunder, and the Trust receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;


•     the Trust fails to qualify for treatment, or ceases to be treated, as a grantor trust for US federal income tax purposes, and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that the Sponsor determines that, because of that tax treatment or change in tax treatment, termination of the Trust is advisable;

•     a United States regulator requires the Trust to shut down or forces the Trust to liquidate its Bitcoins;

•     the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust, based on the closing price of the Shares, was less than $[    ] million (as adjusted for inflation by reference to the US Consumer Price Index) at any time after the first anniversary of the Trust’s formation and the Trustee receives, within six months after the last trading date on which the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust was less than $[    ] million, notice from the Sponsor of its decision to terminate the Trust;
   
•     60 days have elapsed since DTC ceases to act as depository with respect to the Shares and the Sponsor has not identified another depository that is willing to act in such capacity; or

•     the Trustee elects to terminate the Trust after the Sponsor is conclusively deemed to have resigned effective immediately as a result of the Sponsor being adjudged bankrupt or insolvent, or a receiver of the Sponsor or of its property being appointed, or a trustee or liquidator or any public officer taking charge or control of the Sponsor or of its property or affairs for the purpose of rehabilitation, conservation or liquidation.

 [/i]

Do you know if they provided any conditions as to when the ETF will be launched?

When asked in London a few weeks ago, the Winklevoss' said 6 months. Then paused and said maybe 12. I think they are trying to be conservative in their estimates.

Good, in 6-12 months from now BTC is still likely to be fairly cheap. Maybe more along the lines of $300-$500, but I doubt we'll have cracked $1000 by then.

At least from my perspective its key to keep BTC low until that point. I have so much money in my IRA that could just be plopped into BTC the moment that baby hits the exchange its not even funny. I actually make a fair amount from my job each year and although I spend pretty much all my free income on expense & shit, I always make the maximum tax-free additions to my IRA & 401k, and my 401k was even rolled into my IRA, so now the thing is damn humongous. Its the ideal place to invest in BTC, with the added benefit of not being tempted to gamble on gox

[Nemesis]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

If you are going with the RIDICULOUS assertion that they are doing this to dump their coins you are bat***t crazy.

These guys are worth 64 million+. They have invested $2 million into bitcoin. They are creating a ETF to profit and spread accessibility to the BTC marketplace.

End. Of. Story.

lol noobs

[derpinheimer]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

I dont follow. If the trust is cancelled everyone gets refunded [lets just make it simple] anll their gains are from fees. Now, the market price should not have been changed because of the ETF because all it does is reduce demand on the exchanges... but increases interest. So, if it closes, maybe the price drops. Now where did they offload the coins?

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

Winklevoss are selling their coins in the form of shares. they stand to gain from fees and the selling of the shares.
These ETFs can be viewed as HUGE ask walls that constantly move with price.

Yeah... thats what I see. But its basically ask walls that have a ton of investors throwing money at it rather than a few people with money on exchanges. What happens when the shares are out?




Doesnt it make more sense that they have, lets say, 100k coins. They market sell all of them to people, and with this money buy.. 80k more? And then sell them.. rinse and repeat.

Seems bullish.

[windjc]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

If you are going with the RIDICULOUS assertion that they are doing this to dump their coins you are bat***t crazy.

These guys are worth 64 million+. They have invested $2 million into bitcoin. They are creating a ETF to profit and spread accessibility to the BTC marketplace.

End. Of. Story.

lol noobs

lol

Explain yourself or just look stupid for us.

[windjc]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

I dont follow. If the trust is cancelled everyone gets refunded [lets just make it simple] anll their gains are from fees. Now, the market price should not have been changed because of the ETF because all it does is reduce demand on the exchanges... but increases interest. So, if it closes, maybe the price drops. Now where did they offload the coins?

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

Winklevoss are selling their coins in the form of shares. they stand to gain from fees and the selling of the shares.
These ETFs can be viewed as HUGE ask walls that constantly move with price.

Yeah... thats what I see. But its basically ask walls that have a ton of investors throwing money at it rather than a few people with money on exchanges. What happens when the shares are out?




Doesnt it make more sense that they have, lets say, 100k coins. They market sell all of them to people, and with this money buy.. 80k more? And then sell them.. rinse and repeat.

Seems bullish.

They will buy more of the underlining commodity. That is how an ETF works.

[derpinheimer]

So they are going to lose a couple % of their bitcoins but accelerate the rate of their acceptance drastically..?

[windjc]

So they are going to lose a couple % of their bitcoins but accelerate the rate of their acceptance drastically..?

They will use their 17k bitcoins are a starting point. They can always replenish those.

[cypherdoc]

So basically you are buying futures in bitcoin when you buy this stock? I don't understand how this works.

I think its more like you're buying a share in Winklevoss's 1% stake in bitcoin.
the Winklevoss hold the bitcoin, and say that these shares are as good as the real thing, and poeple trade the shares not the bitcoins.
poeple believe that these shares are as good as the real thing, so in theory they will follow BTC price very closely.


can you actually get BTC out of this trust?
no i would think not. $ in $ out.

so why do poeple believe its as good as the real thing?
idk!

So basically even if every single "share" of their bitcoin was bought, not a single coin would be bought on the market? All the Winklevoss gains are from fees?

In other words of some other words, its the way they can dump their coins without crashing the market.

If you are going with the RIDICULOUS assertion that they are doing this to dump their coins you are bat***t crazy.

These guys are worth 64 million+. They have invested $2 million into bitcoin. They are creating a ETF to profit and spread accessibility to the BTC marketplace.

End. Of. Story.

+1

[theonewhowaskazu]

So they are going to lose a couple % of their bitcoins but accelerate the rate of their acceptance drastically..?

Basically this.

And not really lose a couple of their BTC, because they'll collect fees, which of course they can use to buy more BTC.

[theonewhowaskazu]

Doesnt it make more sense that they have, lets say, 100k coins. They market sell all of them to people, and with this money buy.. 80k more? And then sell them.. rinse and repeat.

Seems bullish.

Do you understand how much money is in US Retirement Funds that this opens up.  We are talking billions.

yeah, thats what im talking about.

if the sec accepts this, $1000 overnight easy.

Most people are not liquid, I live very well, but with house equity, retirement 401k and retirement pension, savings and such I have a hard time pulling anything meaningful into BTC without huge risks.

If ETF is approved I easily have $100k USD in retirement funds I can play with in BTC, even if I lose 5% to Winklvii for holding it for me.

Don't you lose 5% per year

Seriously, BTC moves 5% in a day.

[cypherdoc]

Doesnt it make more sense that they have, lets say, 100k coins. They market sell all of them to people, and with this money buy.. 80k more? And then sell them.. rinse and repeat.

Seems bullish.

Do you understand how much money is in US Retirement Funds that this opens up.  We are talking billions.

try $18 trillion. as of 2011:

http://www.ebri.org/publications/benfaq/index.cfm?fa=retfaq4

[cypherdoc]

Doesnt it make more sense that they have, lets say, 100k coins. They market sell all of them to people, and with this money buy.. 80k more? And then sell them.. rinse and repeat.

Seems bullish.

Do you understand how much money is in US Retirement Funds that this opens up.  We are talking billions.

try $18 trillion. as of 2011:

http://www.ebri.org/publications/benfaq/index.cfm?fa=retfaq4

edit:  $20.9 trillion as of 2nd qtr 2013

http://ici.org/research/stats/retirement/ret_13_q2

[User705]

Once all these derivatives are approved on top of bitcoin next step is to outlaw private bitcoin ownership itself.  The governmental logic would be why you need to own bitcoin when you can own an ETF for it.  Also gotta love the risk section of it
"The loss or destruction of a private key required to access a Bitcoin may be irreversible. The Trust’s loss of access to its private keys or its experience of a data loss relating to the Trust’s Bitcoins could adversely affect an investment in the Shares.
Bitcoins are controllable only by the possessor of both the unique public key and private key relating to the local or online digital wallet in which the Bitcoins are held. The Trust is required by the operation of the Bitcoin Network to publish the public key relating to a digital wallet in use by the Trust when it first verifies a spending transaction from that digital wallet and disseminates such information into the Bitcoin Network. The Trust safeguards and keeps private the private keys relating to such digital wallets using the Security System. To the extent a private key is lost, destroyed or otherwise compromised and no backup of the private key is accessible, the Trust will be unable to access the Bitcoins held in the related digital wallet and the private key will not be capable of being restored by the Bitcoin Network. Any loss of private keys relating to digital wallets used to store the Trust’s Bitcoins could adversely affect an investment in the Shares."
Also where is the bitcoin address with all these coins?  You'd think that would be front and center but I can't seem to find it.

[vpitcher07]

So basically if this goes through, we could see a massive spike in BTC prices?

[windjc]

So basically if this goes through, we could see a massive spike in BTC prices?

You might see an initial spike and then longer term future traction, best case scenario, imo.

[cypherdoc]

Once all these derivatives are approved on top of bitcoin next step is to outlaw private bitcoin ownership itself.  The governmental logic would be why you need to own bitcoin when you can own an ETF for it.  Also gotta love the risk section of it
"The loss or destruction of a private key required to access a Bitcoin may be irreversible. The Trust’s loss of access to its private keys or its experience of a data loss relating to the Trust’s Bitcoins could adversely affect an investment in the Shares.
Bitcoins are controllable only by the possessor of both the unique public key and private key relating to the local or online digital wallet in which the Bitcoins are held. The Trust is required by the operation of the Bitcoin Network to publish the public key relating to a digital wallet in use by the Trust when it first verifies a spending transaction from that digital wallet and disseminates such information into the Bitcoin Network. The Trust safeguards and keeps private the private keys relating to such digital wallets using the Security System. To the extent a private key is lost, destroyed or otherwise compromised and no backup of the private key is accessible, the Trust will be unable to access the Bitcoins held in the related digital wallet and the private key will not be capable of being restored by the Bitcoin Network. Any loss of private keys relating to digital wallets used to store the Trust’s Bitcoins could adversely affect an investment in the Shares."
Also where is the bitcoin address with all these coins?  You'd think that would be front and center but I can't seem to find it.

next step?  what are you talking about?  you act like there's some grand plan that is being executed to rob ppl of their BTC.  and who exactly is behind this?  the Winklevii in cahoots with the gubmint?  ridiculous.

if this ETF gets approved, it's to the moon.  it's too late to prevent private ownership of Bitcoin.  ask the Chinese.

[windjc]

So basically if this goes through, we could see a massive spike in BTC prices?

yes

In a way, its not too much unlike owning stock (BTC) in a company (Bitcoin Protocol) before an IPO (ETF).

NOT EXACTLY, but definitely similar in some aspects.

[enquirer]

Filing accepted October 8, that's about when the current rally started. Coincidence?

[adamstgBit]

Filing accepted October 8, that's about when the current rally started. Coincidence?

Would explain why the SR drop was not as large as it was, (It should have been more), and why nobody was afraid of ~400-600k of DPRs private stash ending up in FBI hands with a Plea deal.

ya peoples 401k and RRSPs will save us