Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust on Bloomberg

[2_Thumbs_Up]

secondmarket is only open to rich people tho. Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust  would be open to all.

what is this equityinstitutional.com

i thought secondmarket.com was going to handle the bitcoins on their own.

Plenty of folks are rich enough *if* they include their retirement funds.  As an alternative, paying the penalty and taxes to withdraw retirement funds prematurely is a pretty painful way to get into Bitcoin but with the kind of potential it could very well be worth it -- one does not need to be rich enough to use this approach just committed/brave.

I left a voice message with the Equity Institutional person directly and an awaiting a callback.  They are a trust company.  They can hold things, e.g. Bitcoins, in trust for folks.

SecondMarket is apparently partnering with Equity Institutional (and others) to connect Bitcoin investors with trust companies.  I'm sure SecondMarket will want a fee for making this connection but pretty quickly folks will find their own way to the trust companies.

SecondMarket is sticking to their $25K (USD) minimum.  They rejected my request to bring in just ~$14K (USD) at first.  They also insist on documentation showing one is an Accredited Investor, i.e. net worth excluding main residence >$1M (USD).  Even if I can make both hurdles do I want to pay their 1.5% front end, 2% annual and 1.5% back end fees besides the additional fees the trust company charges for their services?  The SecondMarket unit investment trust (UIT), Bitcoin Investment Trust http://www.bitcointrust.co/ (with a suspicious Columbian domain), will be something less than 100% Bitcoin (obviously they will have to have some cash on hand).  Finally, they indicate they will liquid by March 2014 (at that point allowing folks to get out) but how can we be sure?

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

[BitchicksHusband]

secondmarket is only open to rich people tho. Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust  would be open to all.

what is this equityinstitutional.com

i thought secondmarket.com was going to handle the bitcoins on their own.

Plenty of folks are rich enough *if* they include their retirement funds.  As an alternative, paying the penalty and taxes to withdraw retirement funds prematurely is a pretty painful way to get into Bitcoin but with the kind of potential it could very well be worth it -- one does not need to be rich enough to use this approach just committed/brave.

I left a voice message with the Equity Institutional person directly and an awaiting a callback.  They are a trust company.  They can hold things, e.g. Bitcoins, in trust for folks.

SecondMarket is apparently partnering with Equity Institutional (and others) to connect Bitcoin investors with trust companies.  I'm sure SecondMarket will want a fee for making this connection but pretty quickly folks will find their own way to the trust companies.

SecondMarket is sticking to their $25K (USD) minimum.  They rejected my request to bring in just ~$14K (USD) at first.  They also insist on documentation showing one is an Accredited Investor, i.e. net worth excluding main residence >$1M (USD).  Even if I can make both hurdles do I want to pay their 1.5% front end, 2% annual and 1.5% back end fees besides the additional fees the trust company charges for their services?  The SecondMarket unit investment trust (UIT), Bitcoin Investment Trust http://www.bitcointrust.co/ (with a suspicious Columbian domain), will be something less than 100% Bitcoin (obviously they will have to have some cash on hand).  Finally, they indicate they will liquid by March 2014 (at that point allowing folks to get out) but how can we be sure?

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

You mean the same Ernst and Young that oversaw the Lehman Brothers fraud?  (Although it appears they were not punished for this because of a lack of evidence.)

[gweedo]

renting is a wast of money. living with your parents = loser.

Why? I'm planning to rent for a long time

Yes it's expensive, but investing more than your net worth into overpriced real estate is such a bad idea ...

My real estate has already tripled in less than 15 years.  In the non-bitcoin world, that's pretty hard to do.

I am pretty sure most houses tripled in the last 15yrs. Also right now it is a seller's market so if you actually try to sell you probably will not get that amount, cause most houses are overvalued so can't go on that.

[David Rabahy]

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

So, I asked SecondMarket, "Would you please help me understand; how would sharing the public addresses compromise security?  Obviously sharing the private key would absolutely do so.

Also, do you have insurance covering the unlikely loss of the private keys?"

[wachtwoord]

renting is a wast of money. living with your parents = loser.

Why? I'm planning to rent for a long time

Yes it's expensive, but investing more than your net worth into overpriced real estate is such a bad idea ...

My real estate has already tripled in less than 15 years.  In the non-bitcoin world, that's pretty hard to do.

Yes, that's price. It's one of the biggest bubbles that exist. There is hardly any value there. At least that is how I see it.

[rocks]

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

So, I asked SecondMarket, "Would you please help me understand; how would sharing the public addresses compromise security?  Obviously sharing the private key would absolutely do so.

Also, do you have insurance covering the unlikely loss of the private keys?"

I would only invest in this if they shared the public keys for auditing purposes.

Sprott physical gold trust does this. They provide the audit reports with  comex bar numbers.

Sharing a comex gold bar numbers is the same as sharing a btc public key. It allows etf owner to verify the asset exists to back the etf but does not provide physical access and the holding remains secure.

[windjc]

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

So, I asked SecondMarket, "Would you please help me understand; how would sharing the public addresses compromise security?  Obviously sharing the private key would absolutely do so.

Also, do you have insurance covering the unlikely loss of the private keys?"

You were never planning on investing with them were you? Given the fees and all?

If not, it just seems like you are harassing them a bit. They are a private company and certainly have the right to hide their address and keys. You might not like it, but their investors don't care. And if this is about wondering if they are being honest, then this is nothing more than conspiracy theory. Secondmarket has a long and solid track record. They have taken flack for investing in BTC. But their core asset is their trust with their investor and client list. Doing harm that list would ruin their company.

Secondmarket is a good asset and important part of the BTC army of expansion. Just be happy about that.

[Rygon]

You were never planning on investing with them were you? Given the fees and all?

If not, it just seems like you are harassing them a bit. They are a private company and certainly have the right to hide their address and keys. You might not like it, but their investors don't care. And if this is about wondering if they are being honest, then this is nothing more than conspiracy theory. Secondmarket has a long and solid track record. They have taken flack for investing in BTC. But their core asset is their trust with their investor and client list. Doing harm that list would ruin their company.

Secondmarket is a good asset and important part of the BTC army of expansion. Just be happy about that.

+1

Clearly Secondmarket is marketing to a different set of clients than the folks who are technically familiar with bitcoin. It's equivalent of selling shares of valuable internet domain to people who read the newspaper daily and don't even have a computer. And then not telling it's customers what those domain names are. There are people who will still buy this, just based on their trust with the the company behind the fund.

Some clients might even prefer a setup where they have no knowledge of actual public addresses that could potentially be linked back to them.

[BitchicksHusband]

renting is a wast of money. living with your parents = loser.

Why? I'm planning to rent for a long time

Yes it's expensive, but investing more than your net worth into overpriced real estate is such a bad idea ...

My real estate has already tripled in less than 15 years.  In the non-bitcoin world, that's pretty hard to do.

gold did way more than triple in 15 years...

what you are looking at is fiat fail, not your house or gold magically become more valuable.

True.  But you have to include what I've saved on rent...

[David Rabahy]

You were never planning on investing with them were you? Given the fees and all?

If not, it just seems like you are harassing them a bit. They are a private company and certainly have the right to hide their address and keys. You might not like it, but their investors don't care. And if this is about wondering if they are being honest, then this is nothing more than conspiracy theory. Secondmarket has a long and solid track record. They have taken flack for investing in BTC. But their core asset is their trust with their investor and client list. Doing harm that list would ruin their company.

Secondmarket is a good asset and important part of the BTC army of expansion. Just be happy about that.

I am just inches from investing with them -- fees and all.  Until the ETF is available, retirement funds can't be moved into Bitcoin short of withdrawing them and paying 10% penalty and income taxes (if not Roth) -- yuk.

Assuming minimum investment of $25K, that would be;

$375 1.5% initial fee
$500 2.0% annual fee which piles up the more years you're in
$?     1.5% exit fee

But, there's also the Equity Institutional fees to be considered.

If Bitcoin goes to zero or just down it will be unpleasant.  If Bitcoin coins up enough then it is a win.  One invests in Bitcoin to be diversified; to hedge against the falling US dollar.

[David Rabahy]

Clearly Secondmarket is marketing to a different set of clients than the folks who are technically familiar with bitcoin. It's equivalent of selling shares of valuable internet domain to people who read the newspaper daily and don't even have a computer. And then not telling it's customers what those domain names are. There are people who will still buy this, just based on their trust with the the company behind the fund.

Some clients might even prefer a setup where they have no knowledge of actual public addresses that could potentially be linked back to them.

I am technically familiar with Bitcoin yet I am also very close to becoming a SecondMarket client -- perhaps I am just rare/special.  So far I haven't found a way to bring my retirement funds into Bitcoin; SecondMarket gives me that.

I have yet to encounter anyone else (except my son who was the one that spark my interest in the first place) I personally know that wants to enter Bitcoin at all -- I am perhaps not the most effective ambassador.  Well, I've gotten a couple of very minor nibbles but nothing big.

[User705]

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

So, I asked SecondMarket, "Would you please help me understand; how would sharing the public addresses compromise security?  Obviously sharing the private key would absolutely do so.

Also, do you have insurance covering the unlikely loss of the private keys?"

Not only is there no insurance there's likely a clause that absolves them of liability in the case of loss.  But you won't convince the fanboys of these trusts because bitcoin is just another bubble to them to profit in fiat terms.  Investing in these is to throw away every positive reason behind owning bitcoin except its value appreciation and even that basically comes with risk.  If private keys get lost/stolen then the investors couldn't even trace the coins because you'll just get a nice generic letter stating they lost them.  If bitcoin becomes huge and government decides to ban it or confiscate or perhaps place a huge windfall tax then you'll also get a nice form letter and that's it.  But hey who cares about bitcoin being revolutionary or freedom inspiring as long as you get an IRA deduction.

[Syke]

I am technically familiar with Bitcoin yet I am also very close to becoming a SecondMarket client -- perhaps I am just rare/special.  So far I haven't found a way to bring my retirement funds into Bitcoin; SecondMarket gives me that.

Don't you also need a self-directed IRA plan somewhere else? Got any potentials lined up for that?

[SheHadMANHands]

I asked SecondMarket, "Will you provide the Bitcoin address or addresses where the trust holdings will reside so that I can use something like Blockchain.info to confirm balances?"

SecondMarket responded, "For security reasons, we will not be able to share the addresses. As you may have read, we have partnered with great service providers including Ernst and Young on the audit side and Sidley Austin on the legal side to oversee our storing of bitcoin."

That is a horrible answer. Bitcoin as a technology gives them the possibility to make their holdings 100% transparent and auditable at almost 0 cost and they simply choose not to for a made up security reason.

So, I asked SecondMarket, "Would you please help me understand; how would sharing the public addresses compromise security?  Obviously sharing the private key would absolutely do so.

Also, do you have insurance covering the unlikely loss of the private keys?"

You were never planning on investing with them were you? Given the fees and all?

If not, it just seems like you are harassing them a bit. They are a private company and certainly have the right to hide their address and keys. You might not like it, but their investors don't care. And if this is about wondering if they are being honest, then this is nothing more than conspiracy theory. Secondmarket has a long and solid track record. They have taken flack for investing in BTC. But their core asset is their trust with their investor and client list. Doing harm that list would ruin their company.

Secondmarket is a good asset and important part of the BTC army of expansion. Just be happy about that.

+2

Don't see why not listing the public address would make you paranoid that they didn't even hold the BTC or something.  They aren't concerned about you getting the private key, but maybe they don't want to disclose, when they don't have to, where it's located, how it's distributed (one on address, or many), how much others have invested, and the paper trail of where that BTC came from and moved.  Seems reasonable to me really..

[windjc]

Clearly Secondmarket is marketing to a different set of clients than the folks who are technically familiar with bitcoin. It's equivalent of selling shares of valuable internet domain to people who read the newspaper daily and don't even have a computer. And then not telling it's customers what those domain names are. There are people who will still buy this, just based on their trust with the the company behind the fund.

Some clients might even prefer a setup where they have no knowledge of actual public addresses that could potentially be linked back to them.

I am technically familiar with Bitcoin yet I am also very close to becoming a SecondMarket client -- perhaps I am just rare/special.  So far I haven't found a way to bring my retirement funds into Bitcoin; SecondMarket gives me that.

I have yet to encounter anyone else (except my son who was the one that spark my interest in the first place) I personally know that wants to enter Bitcoin at all -- I am perhaps not the most effective ambassador.  Well, I've gotten a couple of very minor nibbles but nothing big.

If you don't mind the fees, Id invest if I was you.  The ETF will probably be a better deal re: fees, but that isn't a guarantee and could be awhile. Assuming there is no penalty for switching from 2nd market to ETF, then you don't have much to lose, assuming you believe market will go up in next 6 months from where it is today.

[FiatKiller]

The only problem I see is that the price per share of an ETF is supposed to match what it's an ETF for. So if someone buys $1000 worth and BTC is $200 each, then they technically need to buy 5 more bitcoins. What if the demand is so high that not enough BTC is available for sale? Not sure you can lock an ETF, and say sorry no more can be bought. You could buy if someone is willing to sell their shares of it because then the total correlation of dollars to BTC is not changing.

[rpietila]

Im a loser lol. I live in my parents'-IN-LAW basement

Also in thailand its so much better to rent. Rent is almost free but buying a house is pretty damn high.

A crucial piece of info was missing...

I also prefer rent. Here you get about 3% return on capital, which cannot compare with bitcoin.

[Troll Toll]

there will always be bitcoins for sale. the asking price will rise until someone is willing to sell.

[David Rabahy]

I am technically familiar with Bitcoin yet I am also very close to becoming a SecondMarket client -- perhaps I am just rare/special.  So far I haven't found a way to bring my retirement funds into Bitcoin; SecondMarket gives me that.

Don't you also need a self-directed IRA plan somewhere else? Got any potentials lined up for that?

The custodian for my IRA will be Equity Institutional (formerly Sterling Trust).  I have submitted all of the application forms (not too tough).  I am just waiting now for the final clearance from SecondMarket.  So, last chance for any vital revelations.  I appreciate both the votes of confidence from Windjc and Rygon, etc., *and* the plea to strive for purity.  I have felt for a very long time a desire to diversify out of US dollar denominate investments but never could see any sense in the Euro, Yen, Yuan, etc.  Physical commodities are not without their cons.  I want to take retirement funds, especially Roth, into Bitcoin but do not want to wait for the ETF; transferring to the ETF in the future might be reasonable.  I have no intention of dumping Bitcoin when the exchange rate reaches some magical amount.  If Bitcoin fails then my diversification play looses; so be it.  If Bitcoin succeeds then I will spend mine on goods and services as I see fit or pass them along to my beneficiaries.  I am no day trader.

Based on the limited research I've done, I trust SecondMarket and Equity Institutional enough to plow $25K in.  If they screw up then they will miss out on a tremendous opportunity to do more business with many people.  Someone has to take a chance and go first/early; I'm willing and able.  I will continue to report on my experiences.

[User705]

Why not just buy a casasuis gold bitcoin.  Gold coins are allowed in an IRA.  You'd rather buy an ETF then actual bitcoins.  Makes no sense.