More crap to deal with - Dwolla Reverses TradeHill Transactions

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

@Tradehill

Love your service and I feel for you man...

BUT

Seriously, if you shut off Dwolla as a means to withdraw USD from Trade Hill, you're game over.

True you're number two but I do believe MTGOX is the number one customer. As far as MTGOX making any statement, given their recent problems, they would eat this and remain quiet before they would bring this on them.

I realize that $37K or 2642 BTC is a chunk to say the least. However, the damage you are doing to yourself and Bitcoin in general far exceeds that amount by a factor of ten, which may be the entire purpose of the attack to begin with.

Wishing you the best and will continue to use your service until you drop outbound Dwolla transfers.

BCX

Thanks for the support BCX.

It could be game over if we shut off Dwolla but we're risking a lot by keeping it up. If we don't cut it off (until they fix it) then we are risking fraud and more importantly sacrificing our principals.
I believe continuing to use this and hide the fraud could eventually do more damage to Bitcoin. I can forgive Gox getting hacked. I can't see them hiding fraud. I think they either don't know or aren't being defrauded.
If they are and they're covering it up then that is beyond inexcusable and I will be very disappointed.

We're open to work with Dwolla and hopefully we can get this all straightened out. Outgoing Dwolla transfers should be fine.

Jered

[Serge]

Anyone operating in US under money transmitting business license will have reversible procedures in place for buyer protection against fraud.

The issue isn't Dwolla protecting the buyer from fraud. They can certainly do that if they want to by refunding their money. That's not what happened here.

It looks like this:

Scammer <- Transaction A -> Dwolla <- Transaction B -> TradeHill

Now, if Dwolla wants to reverse transaction A due to fraud to protect the buyer, they certainly can. But there's no fraud in transaction B, and Dwolla has no grounds to reverse *that* transaction.

I was unbelievably surprised when I heard of Dwolla service with their claim to have no chargebacks as a benefit for merchants.

Exactly. The whole point of Dwolla is that TradeHill doesn't have to go through the risk and expense of entering into a transaction with a possible scammer. They can just take Dwolla and deal only with Dwolla. I sincerely hope that this was simply a mistake on Dwolla's part and they'll correct it immediately as soon as they can. Otherwise, they've just eliminated their entire purpose.

You are right, and i'm totally with you on this. Current chargeback/dispute system can be easily abused by buyers and they are well aware of this.
Although I don't think there was a mistake and that Dwolla will make it right. They don't even have any Terms of Service on their site. They want to be like paypal with cheaper fees and will do anything to protect their business which puts them in position to bend over to buyers and screw merchants without significant due diligence. I hope I'm wrong.

[NamelessOne]

i don't know about anyone else, but this is conjuring feelings of being GOXED all over again...........

That's the point I was trying to get across to Jered aka Tradehill.

Customer's accounts were not affected, so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla. It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin didn't need this and this wasn't thought out very well.



In a way, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed.

BCX

I have the same thoughts. Things were getting into rally mode and this could seriously mess things up.

[Trader Steve]

i don't know about anyone else, but this is conjuring feelings of being GOXED all over again...........

That's the point I was trying to get across to Jered aka Tradehill.

Customer's accounts were not affected, so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla. It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin didn't need this and this wasn't thought out very well.



In a way, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed.

BCX

This was the only way to get Dwolla's attention and sound the alarm to others who might get hurt. It actually illustrates how bitcoin is the superior currency - no chargebacks. It's not bitcoin's or TradeHill's fault if Dwolla is lame. I'm glad they exposed this now before the damage became worse. Again, this illustrates the superiority of bitcoin to other currencies - some people will lie, cheat and steal to get some.

[Serge]

i don't know about anyone else, but this is conjuring feelings of being GOXED all over again...........

That's the point I was trying to get across to Jered aka Tradehill.

Customer's accounts were not affected, so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla. It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin didn't need this and this wasn't thought out very well.



In a way, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed.

BCX

Bitcoins didn't fuck anyone.

I'm actually glad that TH brought it up. Thing about Bitcoin project - it solves problems, just one more problem to learn how to deal with. without this announcement more exchanges could have been screwed and also puts in to perspective acceptance of ACHs for anyone whoever considered using them.  If TH could not get Dwolla to respond to them and work out these issues, TH had all rights to go public with this announcement.
Bitcoin will survive.

[Trader Steve]

Customer's accounts were not affected, so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla. It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

This is more of a Dwolla scandal than a bitcoin scandal. Dwolla is the business that appears to be acting negligently (or even fraudulently) and TradeHill (among others) is the primary victim.

[rainingbitcoins]

Again, this illustrates the superiority of bitcoin to other currencies - some people will lie, cheat and steal to get some.

So... people won't lie, cheat, and steal to get dollars, pounds, or euros? Interesting!

[Nefario]

The problem is bitcoin is a hard currency, and any attempts to hook it up to the soft currency system (a.k.a. banks where almost everything can be charged back) means that there are going to be gaps created that people will take advantage.

This is an issue/problem with the current banking system, a lot of the fraud that happens today is only possible because of the current broken banking system.

[Serge]

Customer's accounts were not affected, so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla. It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

This is more of a Dwolla scandal than a bitcoin scandal. Dwolla is the business that appears to be acting negligently (or even fraudulently) and TradeHill (among others) is the primary victim.

Exactly, Dwolla advertised no chargebacks as benefit for merchants and effectively started reversals without even notifying the merchant.  I hope TH seeks legal counsel.

[Trader Steve]

So... people won't lie, cheat, and steal to get dollars, pounds, or euros? Interesting!

I did not say that. Sorry if you got that impression. My point is that bitcoin is head and shoulders above Dwolla.

[FreeMoney]

I don't get how this is about Bitcoin at all. One company that doesn't even use Bitcoins made a promise, now we wait and see if they keep it. It seems obvious that Dwolla would get scammed from time to time, their promise of not passing on the chargeback is what made them valuable.

I don't see why TH waited two weeks. Not because they have some obligation to tell us that they might be getting ripped off by Dwolla, but because I would stop accepting Dwolla the first time it happened if I didn't get a response from Dwolla. How can you go on bleeding money like that? I don't see how you can reliably stop it from happening, I'm under the impression that normal confirmed transactions are just being pulled back. How can you tell which to believe now?

[hugolp]

This was the only way to get Dwolla's attention and sound the alarm to others who might get hurt. It actually illustrates how bitcoin is the superior currency - no chargebacks. It's not bitcoin's or TradeHill's fault if Dwolla is lame. I'm glad they exposed this now before the damage became worse. Again, this illustrates the superiority of bitcoin to other currencies - some people will lie, cheat and steal to get some.

The few people that know what Bitcoin is will understand this, but the 99% of people that will read the stories that will run internet wide over the next few days will not. Tradehill is going to be portayed as weak in security and run by amateurs with Bitcoin being hailed as a scam.

The only possible motive to air this out was to put pressure on Dwolla. Customer's accounts were not affected. By Jered's owm admission they have been dealing with this for two weeks. This was a bad "Chess Move".....

I seriously have concerns with an exchange that claims to do millions with Dwolla cannot float $37K for the better of Bitcoin as a whole.

I would have no problem with Trade Hill airing this if it affected customers but it didn't.

Trade Hill simply could have said there were issues with Dwolla transfers in and left it at that.

Bad move Jered, this is going to bite you back hard.

BCX

I dont see either how this is going to be spin off as a Bitcoin failure. Its a failure of Dwolla, a dollar service.

[JoelKatz]

Customer's accounts were not affected,

What about customers who need to make deposits using Dwolla?

so why make it public other than trying to place pressure on Dwolla.

Pressure needs to be placed on Dwolla if they fail to do what they said they would do and what others relied on them to do.

It's not coming across the way TH intended. By tomorrow afternoon, there will massive reports internet wide about another scandal with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin didn't need this and this wasn't thought out very well.

What do you want TradeHill to do about it? People may have made commitments to buy things with bitcoins and now they can't do it because of Dwolla. Should TradeHill just say "We're not taking Dwolla anymore. Sorry if you relied on us." when it's not their fault?

In a way, the more I think about it, the more I get pissed.

What should TradeHill have done exactly? Continued to take Dwolla? Secretly stopped taking Dwolla?

[Jaime Frontero]

dwolla is behaving poorly.

i note that - while earlier today their 'contact us' page went to a 404, it now redirects to their home page.

clearly, they're in a very serious damage-control mode.

i can't help but wonder what their contacts with the banking community and the feds have been like.  methinks they are a surrogate victim for Bitcoin.

[RandyFolds]

I seriously have concerns with an exchange that claims to do millions with Dwolla cannot float $37K for the better of Bitcoin as a whole.

I would have no problem with Trade Hill airing this if it affected customers but it didn't.

Trade Hill simply could have said there were issues with Dwolla transfers in and left it at that.

Bad move Jered, this is going to bite you back hard.

BCX

Are you joking? TradeHill should eat a $37,000 theft...for Bitcoin? As a favor to us? Why don't you float that $37,000 for Bitcoin? You will be the hero of the bitcoin exchanges.

This does affect customers. If you can't see how, I am not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

They could have glossed over the problem and left us in the dark, much as Dwolla is doing, but instead, TH did the honorable thing. I highly, highly doubt that showing his integrity will come back to bite him in the end...

[Keyur @ Camp BX]

A quick update:

      We proposed a 3-point solution to make rollback risk more manageable going forward, and Dwolla has shown willingness to implement all 3 by end of the week.  We take this as a very positive sign, so we are continuing to accept Dwolla deposits.

I will share more details after we tie-in over a phone call tomorrow.

Thank you,
      Keyur

[JoelKatz]

They could have glossed over the problem and left us in the dark, much as Dwolla is doing, but instead, TH did the honorable thing. I highly, highly doubt that showing his integrity will come back to bite him in the end...

+1.

Watch TH to see how reputable companies handle their problems.

[Serge]

A quick update:

      We proposed a 3-point solution to make rollback risk more manageable going forward, and Dwolla has shown willingness to implement all 3 by end of the week.  We take this as a very positive sign, so we are continuing to accept Dwolla deposits.

I will share more details after we tie-in over a phone call tomorrow.

Thank you,
      Keyur

Good news, hopefully good thing will come out after all of this and Dwolla makes it right with TH too
keep us posted! Thank you!

[Serge]

Hugolp
I dont see either how this is going to be spin off as a Bitcoin failure. Its a failure of Dwolla, a dollar service.

Regardless if true or not, The Bitcoin haters and the media in general will more than happy to run the headlines

"Another Bitcoin Major Exchanged Gets Hit"

" How Safe is Bitcoin When Primary Exchanges Are Victims"

"Another Bitcoin Scam".....


Trade Hill sat on this for two weeks, this has zero to do with notifying other exchanges, that has more than likely been done privately. It's about public pressure that is going to back fire. Dwolla isn't going to take a hit on this other than the several hundred people here on this forum.

Bitcoin and Trade Hill with take a hit Internet wide.


BCX

Your posts are more damaging, I will make a note not to use your services.

[bitcon]

if Bitcoin is the enemy in the eyes of the Centralized banking system, and the banking system cannot attack bitcoin directly, so they will try to attack middlemen such as Dwolla. destroying the middleman and the Credibility of Bitcoin in the process.

sit back and wait for more.