Where are the new Custom Hardware vendors?

[bobsag3]

I was just replying to the question.

He was looking for a new Custom Hardware vendor, and we have one in our midst: a miner just like us that put his money where his mouth is and paid to get 15TH/s made to be delivered sooner, rather than later.

These are always at-cost or even below-cost deals I structure for GBs. I don't make a single satoshi from immediate GB share sales as the extra funds go into UPS protection and co-op facility improvements. I'm trying to pool buying power so us little guys can get Institutional Pricing and exclusive deals like this.

I was once scammed by ASX Project (see the #4 sidebar FAQ at: http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmining ) and I fell for BFL's BS when I was a noob. I'm here to help others have better experiences than I did when I started.

For me: personally, I eventually receive 0.25-0.37% of the 2.75% hosting/management fees once the miners arrive and are running, for coordinating all this and running the co-op. I would definitely say that is a very modest fee for the value of my work. I actually have no skin in these particular Rounds myself as far as shares but that's just because I have so many pre-orders in already, all over the place.

Yeah and I was asking a genuine question . I'm looking for the catch and can't find one which of course most people would find alarming. I'm not saying "true believers" don't exist but they are very rare and the number #1 choice of clothing for wolves .

Because I have more than enough for myself to make a tidy profit, and I still make money on having all the boards hosted with me. Just because I am not as greedy as others does not mean I am doing this at a loss

This just raises my alarm but I think I will look into this more and maybe throw a few BTC in to see how it pans out since you guys have been pretty tenacious in defending any accusations or concerns...

Im more than happy to answer any questions or concerns, as is zombie. We try not to have too much of a life outside the forums

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[Tehfiend]

Im more than happy to answer any questions or concerns, as is zombie. We try not to have too much of a life outside the forums

One quick question, is the $123/share price tied to the exchange rate or fixed? I guess I probably should post this in an appropriate thread but oh well O:)

[klondike_bar]

from my research it appears the main issue is that to develop a board based on someone else's chips is usually an expensive venture unless you source it to china or north europe, and even then the asic manufactureres charge too much for thier chips on a reel.

for example lets take a bitfury 16-chip board:

PCB prototype cost (3-10 boards): ~$60-200 per board with varying timeframes
parts (not including bitfury chips): ~$15-30 per board depending if you want to upgrade components for better overclocking
assembly (in north america): ~$80-$200 per board depending how many and where you go. generally there is a first-time fee of >$200

total cost per board for small-run batch : $200-$350 approx
total cost per board for batch of 200 boards : $50-$100 approx
CHIP COST: currently the lowest ive seen is around $15 if ordering a reel. for 16-chip board : $240

this means that even with large production batches, we would be limited by what the chip designer wants for a reel. In the above example, a medium-sized run of boards and assembly would not be much less than direct purchase from MBP/BFSB (especially if they drop pricing to $350-$400 soon like i think they should)

Even with the promise of $5 chips in janruary, you would see costs of around $150 per board and it would be minimally cheaper then what they would likely charge at the time. The only way to step ahead of the curve is to design your own chips or have an open-source design.

*open-source cant be difficult, since most designs are based on FPGA code, right? I would imagine it cant be difficult to make chips for $1 a peice that are a basic design (exactly what avalon and asicminer did IMO)*

[DyslexicZombei]

Im more than happy to answer any questions or concerns, as is zombie. We try not to have too much of a life outside the forums

One quick question, is the $123/share price tied to the exchange rate or fixed? I guess I probably should post this in an appropriate thread but oh well O:)

The share price is fixed as far as USD but volatile as far as BTC. This helps protect our GBs from BTC's day to day volatility (when miners are priced in USD) and also allows people to time any BTC buys to their best advantage. The exchange rate we use is Bitstamp, as every mfg. we've ordered from so far has used this rate.

Here's the Round 11 payment post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=315952.msg3384287#msg3384287

[bitterdog]

For those looking to buy hardware off the shelf, Black Arrow was contracted to do a Bullet Run by bobsag3 and a custom hardware mfg. that sells his miners on the GB forum. bobsag3 is the exclusive official US Reseller for Black Arrow and has put a lot of money down to get hardware in miners hands sooner rather than later.

I was offered exclusive pricing on this by bobsag3, a DZ MC co-op member/leader/admin/vetted miner host and GB Coordinator.

BA is guaranteeing shipping by November 1 or we get our money back.Thomas S. and I are holding onto the GB funds to make sure that refund funds are available, if necessary. In fact, we have an update from the factory that they expect to be shipping tomorrow night and bobsag3 expects delivery in Missouri by Wednesday/Thursday. If they fail to meet this Nov. 1 deadline we all get refunds but get to keep the hashrate.    

These boards will be considered to be on the shelf and available for immediate sale/shipping by Wednesday/Thursday. I should have some more recent pictures to share on this shortly.

===

I'm offering fractional ownership of these boards to be hosted at a pro colo facility by bobsag3. There is also a sales outlet if you just wanted to buy boards outright, but I'm not involved with that deal.

I'm just the GB Coordinator for this deal and I'm truly hardware neutral as a longtime IT vet (except for BFL/Avalon; they're permabanned from our co-op). I'm not officially affiliated with BA, but they have stopped by to confirm that they're working with bobsag3.

To summarize: 15TH/s Black Arrow Bullet Run with Bitfury chips now instead of BA Minion chips in February.

$123 = 8.34 - 10GH/s + 1 month free hosting in Missouri + World's Lowest Hosting/Management fees at 2.75% every 2 weeks + UPS / Gas Generator backup protection + 3 remote admins + 1 local admin (all IT pros, including 2 Network Engineers and an EE) + custom built cabinet with extra Air Conditioner just for our co-op. This facility was designed by bosag3 and myself, a pro network engineer who's designed 4 different Research Lab server rooms.

Miners guaranteed to be shipping by November 1 or your money/BTC back.

Please see the 11th GB link in my sig for more details.

MOST people are not interested in SHARING the cost of a single miner. If bob is willing to sell them to individuals as a single sale then by all means open the flood gates lets get them sold... otherwise this thread wasn't really the place for you to promote your group buy/hosted venture - To promote Bob selling black arrows - yes.. your GB - No

Bob if you want to sell some of the bullet runs pm me... otherwise they are just all reserved for this group buy thing and that's shame on black arrow for allowing the ONLY reseller to lock them up and not get them out to as many people as possible. Word of mouth goes far for reputation and future sales

[DyslexicZombei]

I believe that I mentioned that these Black Arrow Bullet Run boards were available for sale outside the co-op, but I wasn't involved with that. If someone wants to run the miners themselves they can buy them outright at higher prices.

As a co-op with greater numbers/buying power we get access to Institutional Pricing & Exclusives outside the range of normal deals. We even get approached for at-cost and below-cost miner buyout offers from members, which has happened in 3 rounds. It's just a fact of the world that buying concerns with more purchasing power always get better deals. However, deals like these don't normally just fall in our lap, I'm actively always looking for the best deals for miners out there.

I think this is the perfect place to mention this GB as it's the least expensive/best value access to custom hardware that will be "on the shelf" in Missouri by Wed/Thursday, which is what we miners have been complaining about for so long. This isn't the first time a GB has bled over to the CH forum as they're often interrelated and you sometimes see GBs or GB-type listings posted outright by others on this CH forum.

Here's a couple examples of entire threads that probably belonged in the GB forum alongside Canary, SSB, and company: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309918.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292433.0

If someone wants to buy boards elsewhere and run them themselves, they also have that option.

Options are good! Our co-op option is the no muss/no fuss option at smaller price points then manufacturers can typically offer customers, which is why we've also gotten support from various mfgs. that we work with.

[bitterdog]

I believe that I mentioned that these Black Arrow Bullet Run boards were available for sale outside the co-op, but I wasn't involved with that. If someone wants to run the miners themselves they can buy them outright at higher prices.

As a co-op with greater numbers/buying power we get access to Institutional Pricing & Exclusives outside the range of normal deals. We even get approached for at-cost and below-cost miner buyout offers from members, which has happened in 3 rounds. It's just a fact of the world that buying concerns with more purchasing power always get better deals. However, deals like these don't normally just fall in our lap, I'm actively always looking for the best deals for miners out there.

I think this is the perfect place to mention this GB as it's the least expensive/best value access to custom hardware that will be "on the shelf" in Missouri by Wed/Thursday, which is what we miners have been complaining about for so long. This isn't the first time a GB has bled over to the CH forum as they're often interrelated and you sometimes see GBs or GB-type listings posted outright by others on this CH forum.

Here's a couple examples of entire threads that probably belonged in the GB forum alongside Canary, SSB, and company: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309918.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292433.0

If someone wants to buy boards elsewhere and run them themselves, they also have that option.

Options are good! Our co-op option is the no muss/no fuss option at smaller price points then manufacturers can typically offer customers, which is why we've also gotten support from various mfgs. that we work with.

ok so you got this gb for arrows.. 100 shares @ $123 each for 20 boards..

say I buy 20 shares.. that's equivalent to 4 boards.. I can have the 4 boards just sent to me and absolve the GB of any liability etc for my shares?

[DyslexicZombei]

ok so you got this gb for arrows.. 100 shares @ $123 each for 20 boards..

say I buy 20 shares.. that's equivalent to 4 boards.. I can have the 4 boards just sent to me and absolve the GB of any liability etc for my shares?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I'm a Group Buy Coordinator (you know: just a vetted miner that has the organizer gene) and not a vendor. It just so happens that this method offers a non-traditional method of fractional ownership at lower risks to a completely non-traditional Custom Hardware product. I don't think any other GBC that also offers hosting offers this particular method of sales either.

I built this co-op so that I *could* get these kinds of deals for other miners and for myself. It allows me (and others) to hedge and spread Custom Hardware bets (besides BTC buy/hold) at wholesale or at-cost deals.

It's priced this way because you're also getting hosting from bobsag3. His hosting fees helps make up the difference for these miners to be sold at this low cost and was part of his decision process in considering whether to offer our co-op this pricing.

Besides: How am I supposed to make my massive 0.25-0.37% commission on BTC mined if I did it this way?   [For those wondering: that's my only "profit" from my co-op efforts, besides BTC earned by my own shares in most of our Rounds.]

==

BTW, I'd like to add that bitterdog is the reason why my GB Escrow Coordinator Services has the "Coordinator" Title as opposed to "Agent" title. He probably kept me out of a heap of legal troubles and a mountain of paperwork.

I tried to tip him but he adamantly refused. He's a good guy, IMHO.

[Bicknellski]

(Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures)

Failed?

Redfury / Bluefury shipped in quantity within weeks of the finalized design and both runs sold out.

Avalon K1 USB people "pre-ordered" were paid back proactively and which you are STILL lying about in the trust ratings about me, given that the chips never arrived sort of like the Monarch tape out... failure on the chip manufacturers part. See Terrahash for failure to deliver and failure to fully refund.

As for our new venture the A1 Wasp we suspect we will have something on the market well before the Monarch even has a chip taped out. Our group is also considering a ColdFury version of the Bitfury USB if the prices for chips are reasonable and can provide the community with units in a few weeks time.

Failure is a relative term. I have yet to be a part of a team that has failed to REFUND people their BTC in a timely manner. We made a conscious decision not to continue holding money and refunded people given the delays well outside our control and rather than continuing to fail to refund people illegally for months (in some cases) as BFL has done, we did the right thing we gave refunds.

There is a huge ETHICAL divide between what you do at BFL and for BFL and what I have done and will do moving forward for our group. Where I respect and value the people that put their trust in me and the groups I work with further when I promise to deliver and then I know I can't deliver I return their money no questions asked unlike you and BFL. The FAILURE here is that BFL is direct violation to US laws and is not refunding customers.

So... to recap.

The groups I have worked with pulled the plug on a 11,000 USB K1 Nano unit run knowing full well that Avalon couldn't deliver the chips and we refunded everyone immediately.
The groups I have worked with have put out thousands of USB Bitfury mining units with little or no complaints, with reasonable delivery windows.
The group I am currently working with will have a unit for sale (open source hardware) that will be out WELL before the Monarch ever arrives.

Unlike your second gen ASIC vaporware chips for the Monarch which are already 2 months behind on your imaginary tape out schedule we are working with real chips and or chip fabricators that have actual people in house doing the ASIC design who can deliver on time or provide a refund / compensation for late delivery.

So ya I am a failure. I failed to keep people's BTC and I failed to force them to take extraordinary steps to recoup their BTC. I will continue to fail in this way because I am ethical and tend to work with ethical people. Your attempt to slander my reputation is well documented and I am not the only person that you have done this to.

Why not tell us why you were a defendant in Directv Inc v. Puccinelli et al.? http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ksd-2_03-cv-02287/content-detail.html

Why were you enjoined from violating 47 USC 605(a)?


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/605

(a) Practices prohibited
Except as authorized by chapter 119, title 18, no person receiving, assisting in receiving, transmitting, or assisting in transmitting, any interstate or foreign communication by wire or radio shall divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning thereof, except through authorized channels of transmission or reception,
(1) to any person other than the addressee, his agent, or attorney,
(2) to a person employed or authorized to forward such communication to its destination,
(3) to proper accounting or distributing officers of the various communicating centers over which the communication may be passed,
(4) to the master of a ship under whom he is serving,
(5) in response to a subpena issued by a court of competent jurisdiction, or
(6) on demand of other lawful authority. No person not being authorized by the sender shall intercept any radio communication and divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such intercepted communication to any person. No person not being entitled thereto shall receive or assist in receiving any interstate or foreign communication by radio and use such communication (or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not entitled thereto. No person having received any intercepted radio communication or having become acquainted with the contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such communication (or any part thereof) knowing that such communication was intercepted, shall divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such communication (or any part thereof) or use such communication (or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not entitled thereto. This section shall not apply to the receiving, divulging, publishing, or utilizing the contents of any radio communication which is transmitted by any station for the use of the general public, which relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress, or which is transmitted by an amateur radio station operator or by a citizens band radio operator.

-------------

Sorry needed to fix the record after Inaba 1 day later post edit.

[reactor]

So in summary it seems worthless to try having A CONVERSATION on this forum because people are here for the bitch-fest, not the decent content and engaging conversations.

To group respond -

It's lame to hijack another thread for selling your stuff.  Period.  Especially when that hashrate will likely never return the $123 invested, so, again, better spent on holding BTC because you can still back out of that at any point.  Or better, I'll take your $123 and return you $110, and that is a more optimistic return than 8-10GH will give.

It's sad that vendors have to bicker, especially when neither is delivering something that will earn back the price they are charging/charged at the time of sale vs. expected delivery date.

Don't tell me I have to go to /r/Bitcoin to find intelligent conversation.

[shapemaker]

So in summary it seems worthless to try having A CONVERSATION on this forum because people are here for the bitch-fest, not the decent content and engaging conversations.

Use that "ignore" button, and you'll have a much more pleasant experience here. Start with Inaba.

[Bicknellski]

So in summary it seems worthless to try having A CONVERSATION on this forum because people are here for the bitch-fest, not the decent content and engaging conversations.

Use that "ignore" button, and you'll have a much more pleasant experience here. Start with Inaba.

I contributed to the conversation. My concern is with Inaba slandering me and others.

And reactor back on Ignore.

[the_remote]

Whichever one of you guys can get some competitive equipment out there will be the first ones to get my money.  These BitFury options coming out as of late for $800-$1200 just to get started are frankly way out of line. 

I will wait until November, December, January, whatever it takes until the first company that comes along and offers something in a realistic price for what you are getting.  Do I expect it to ROI?  Not necessarily, but it should make up most of the cost of the unit at the very least.

[Ytterbium]

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Yeah I guess you figured that out by not having any.  

What happened to all your predictions about KnC never shipping on time?

Huh, Avalon, really?  Last I checked, they had imploded.  Bitfury shows out of stock on all products.  ASICminer was order and wait last time I looked, but perhaps that's changed, I don't keep up with them much.  Please provide links otherwise?

Their reputation was damaged by delaying their chips for a few months, far shorter then your delays, and they offered full BTC refunds to people how had their orders delayed, and are now shipping units built from those chips. They're also shipping units from inventory, not pre-orders.

I'm not going to bother linking because you're a delusional idiot, and there's no reason to bother trying to prove anything to you because who cares what you think?  You're just a joke to laugh at.

Oh, btw thanks for failing so hard. I never ordered from you, and  I made soo much more money with my B2 Avalon thanks to your perpetual fail fest!

___
Anyway, there are some new vendors out there.  Bitmine.ch, blackarrow are taking pre-orders (Not sure if they succeeded in getting enough funding).

BTCGarden currently has hardware, but their mainly marketing it in China, I think.

[reactor]

This doesn't give me much faith...

So Bitmine is selling Coincraft, on which you'll be losing money within three months of the optimistic December ship date at current price.  Will never return price paid.

AsicMiner has decided that offering massive USB hubs is an incentive to keep buying their bitsticks.  Doing some math, right now the 1.75 BTC price will net you 50 sticks + hub.  Running this through the next 180 days will likely net you less than 1BTC, so you'll never get back your 1.75BTC as after that estimate the per difficulty earnings are just plain sad.

BlackArrow isn't offering anything worth buying unless BTC rises in price dramatically.  Hedging hopes on a future price increase is optimism I can't afford anymore.

Anyone marketing to only China is basically useless to the rest of us who are stateside (which I think was part of the BFL appeal) since that means we'll likely see a markup between that market and ours.

Hold your pitchforks, but this points to a few things.  Inaba was indeed right to say this is a complex process and it appears most who enter the field do not succeed (this is a hardware story, it's a shitty field at times).  But those who do succeed can't bear to hit the price point that exists between guaranteed ROI and a heatbrick for winter, since it is pretty obvious only the vendors (and resellers) are banking on hardware, with a handful of day-1 success stories and the rest of everyone disappointed because the old adage that buying BTC is more worthwhile is holding true.

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

People can stick to their altruism, good of the network, believe in Bitcoin mantras until they are blue in the face - nothing in the mining part of BitCoin looks like anything more than a bunch of greedy kids who keep getting burned and then back in bed with the same one liners and pre-order promises.  I'm all for BTC expanding, but much like I object to country clubs I see no valid reason to pay into a system where my effort to "support the network" is leading towards someone with newer hardware making cash at my expense.  Better to buy and spend BTC at businesses, which in the end will do a ton more for the cause than buying another piece of hardware, lining the pockets of vendors who look like a group of one hit wonders who will walk away from BTC with a pile of cash and no regrets.

[Syke]

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

The KnC offer looks pretty good. They've got a working product, and if they can deliver the next batch in November as promised, I think there's a high probability that it'll pay for itself in BTC. Part of that is due to the recently runup of BTC value. Two weeks ago you'd have had to pay too many BTC for a KnC order.

[reactor]

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

The KnC offer looks pretty good. They've got a working product, and if they can deliver the next batch in November as promised, I think there's a high probability that it'll pay for itself in BTC. Part of that is due to the recently runup of BTC value. Two weeks ago you'd have had to pay too many BTC for a KnC order.

Have you happened to check the now almost 1000-page KNC thread?    All is not rosy in KNC-land for everyone with various levels of build quality, issues with mining software support, differing hardware functionality between versions of the same machine...  I don't have much faith in them considering there are hosted miners that they can't keep hashing or even get online for early orders.  Even being optimistic, mid-November delivery offers only 4, maybe 5 months before the machine costs more to run than it produces, in that time span making back 70% of the price I'd have to pay today isn't that appealing. 

Yes KNC delivered, yes they were close to on target with shipping, but that has been a twisty road to follow and is not one that looks worth going down. 

And in that same logic, in two weeks BTC may tank and hover back in the ~150 range.  The folks pumping cash into keeping the price up aren't going to be there forever.

[Ytterbium]

This doesn't give me much faith...

Faith in what?

So Bitmine is selling Coincraft, on which you'll be losing money within three months of the optimistic December ship date at current price.  Will never return price paid.

AsicMiner has decided that offering massive USB hubs is an incentive to keep buying their bitsticks.  Doing some math, right now the 1.75 BTC price will net you 50 sticks + hub.  Running this through the next 180 days will likely net you less than 1BTC, so you'll never get back your 1.75BTC as after that estimate the per difficulty earnings are just plain sad.

BlackArrow isn't offering anything worth buying unless BTC rises in price dramatically.  Hedging hopes on a future price increase is optimism I can't afford anymore.

Anyone marketing to only China is basically useless to the rest of us who are stateside (which I think was part of the BFL appeal) since that means we'll likely see a markup between that market and ours.

Yeah, people aren't going to sell you free money. If they have profitable chips, they will mine with them.  Why would you expect anything else?

Inaba was indeed right to say this is a complex process and it appears most who enter the field do not succeed

What are you talking about?  Basically everyone who's tried to make ASICs has succeeded.  Avalon,  ASICMiner, Bitfury, KnC, BTCGarden.   I'm pretty confident that Hashfast, Cointerra and ActiveMining will have chips at some point, and so will bitmine.  Even Labcoin seems to have working chips (although in that case we can't rule out a total scam).

Inaba has no idea WTF he's talking about.  He's spouting total nonsense to justify his total (and likely deliberate) failure. No other company with their own chips, other then bASIC has come anywhere near failing as badly as BFL.

How, obviously having working chips and selling them at a price where their customers will actually make money are totally different things.  But they're not trying to make their customers money, they are trying to make money. And in that sense they've succeeded really well.

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

What are you expecting? Why are you surprised you can't find anyone who wants to give you free money with no risk?

People can stick to their altruism, good of the network, believe in Bitcoin mantras until they are blue in the face - nothing in the mining part of BitCoin looks like anything more than a bunch of greedy kids who keep getting burned and then back in bed with the same one liners and pre-order promises.  I'm all for BTC expanding, but much like I object to country clubs I see no valid reason to pay into a system where my effort to "support the network" is leading towards someone with newer hardware making cash at my expense.  Better to buy and spend BTC at businesses, which in the end will do a ton more for the cause than buying another piece of hardware, lining the pockets of vendors who look like a group of one hit wonders who will walk away from BTC with a pile of cash and no regrets.

... What?

The first companies to launch ASICs sold units at low prices in order to fund their development costs.  That worked out well for Avalon customers and OK for KnC customers, and BFL chose to rip off their customers instead of delivering products in a timely fashion.

But that window has closed. It was never going to stay open forever.

[dogie]

The police are coming for Josh, NEEE NAAA NEEE NAAA can hear them now.

[spiccioli]

  Even being optimistic, mid-November delivery offers only 4, maybe 5 months before the machine costs more to run than it produces, in that time span making back 70% of the price I'd have to pay today isn't that appealing. 

The problem is not that in 5 months these units will be bricks, but that at current price and current BTC value november units will not break even in BTC terms.

November Jupiters should cost around 3K USD  right now to have some chance of breakeven-ing.

spiccioli