TradeHill - Dwolla is being scammed and reversing transactions

[Smalleyster]

Well if all this is true, its only a matter of time before Mt Gox is screwed too and they will no longer accept Dwollas also.

I wonder how financial institutions who have to deal with these types of transactions do it. How do you trade in the stock exchange for example?

Back in the day when I had active brokerage accounts they all required I write a check and they did not let me trade until that check had cleared.

[JoelKatz]

Back in the day when I had active brokerage accounts they all required I write a check and they did not let me trade until that check had cleared.

The problem is that payments, including checks, can be reversed long after they clear. For example:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

[The_JMiner]

Then why not let me walk to their bank and make a deposit directly into their bank account?
I have the proof with the deposit receipt and even if it takes 3 days for them to confirm thats better than paying 10$ to 20$ in wire fees.

[Smalleyster]

Back in the day when I had active brokerage accounts they all required I write a check and they did not let me trade until that check had cleared.

The problem is that payments, including checks, can be reversed long after they clear. For example:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

That article refers to *cashier's* checks, which is a totally different beast than a personal check. Apples to oranges. Never take a cashier's check, they are almost always a scam.

[JoelKatz]

That article refers to *cashier's* checks, which is a totally different beast than a personal check. Apples to oranges. Never take a cashier's check, they are almost always a scam.

There only difference is that a cashier's check purports to be guaranteed by a bank. Otherwise, there's no difference. They can both be counterfeited, dishonored or reversed, even a month after they supposedly cleared.

[netrin]

This thread's title states that "Dwolla was scammed", which implies Dwolla's ignorance. I might have worded it more accusingly, but perhaps Jered is only being diplomatic/open to the possibility that Dwolla just has some presentation errors. I would assume that the bank to Dwolla reversal could only occur if the bank or Dwolla account was stolen, otherwise the scammer must have presented a claim which I assume didn't happen.

[bitrick]

So CubedRoot has posted in the Trading Discussion forum that Dwolla has sent him an email stating that there are no chargebacks for just credit and debit card transactions.

They further stated that "bank returns and disputes have always been part of the Dwolla system.", "Sorry for any miscommunication.", "...putting together more information for the web site ... ", "...likely involve updating documentation", etc; see the posted email.

My guess is that Dwolla is worried that they "miscommunicated" the policy so badly that to immediately reject Tradehill would be untenable, so they are easing in the response in various ways while avoiding a direct conflict until the waters are muddied enough.

While they have not communicated with Tradehill, it seems like their position has been disclosed sufficiently to understand how they are likely to handle the disputed transactions and how they are going to operate going forward. Furthermore, Tradehill has the information necessary to make whatever decision they need to make beyond ceasing to do business with them.

Hard to see how Mt. Gox remains unaffected by this.

[EricJ2190]

Jared: If Dwolla doesn't rectify the situation, for how long will you continue to allow Dwolla withdrawals? Will you give your customers advanced notice before dropping Dwolla completely?

[Smalleyster]

Hard to see how Mt. Gox remains unaffected by this.

Just guessing out loud, but my *guess* at this point is that similar has probably happened at Mtgox but they have not noticed it yet.

[bitrick]

Hard to see how Mt. Gox remains unaffected by this.

Just guessing out loud, but my *guess* at this point is that similar has probably happened at Mtgox but they have not noticed it yet.

That's my guess as well. And the possible implications are ugly.

I am pro Bitcoin. I want it to succeed. So it saddens me to raise the possibility that Mt. Gox has been Dwolla'd so badly that they are no longer solvent. If so, they can hide that for a long time as long as there is no "run on the bank", so to speak. So they would have incentive to not disclose loses, hoping they can make up the missing bitcoins with earnings.  But in that case, it seems like they would need to stem the bleeding by stopping Dwolla deposits ASAP. But they have not done that. Strange. Maybe they are hoping that Dwolla will return the money to Tradehill in which case there would be no need to disclose insolvency until that is resolved. I really hope this is all just wild speculation.

Anyway, the speculation will probably continue if they cannot explain why this is not an issue for them. It seems like it must be.

[netrin]

Suppose you had dollars in Dwolla today. Would you transfer it to Mt. Gox or return it to the bank?

[error]

Suppose you had dollars in Dwolla today. Would you transfer it to Mt. Gox or return it to the bank?

I never keep USD in Dwolla for more than a few minutes.

[cypherdoc]

Suppose you had dollars in Dwolla today. Would you transfer it to Mt. Gox or return it to the bank?

i was nervous enough to cancel a bank transfer to dwolla at a cost of $60 to me today.

[bitrick]

Suppose you had dollars in Dwolla today. Would you transfer it to Mt. Gox or return it to the bank?

I would transfer enough to Mt. Gox to buy and immediately withdraw your limit of bitcoins (assuming that is why the money is there to begin with). If its a lot of money, send the rest back to the bank if you are worried about it.

That said, I actually think Dwolla is a little better bet than Mt Gox right now.  It looks to me like Dwolla is going to avoid (their) losses for now, right or wrong. (If it goes to arbitration, that's a different story.) I am not sure about Mt. Gox.

[bbit]

Dwolla's F.B statement ?

[indio007]

What kind of god damn answer was that? That was a question you dolt!

Dwolla has completely and utterly avoided addressing the issue. That's what scares me.

[bbit]

What kind of god damn answer was that? That was a question you dolt!

Dwolla has completely and utterly avoided addressing the issue. That's what scares me.

this is very, very scary ...I'm assuming they are treating their F.B as a way to answer people's questions ?

[indio007]

Well that' the second time today I've seen a correspondence ask them a question and the response was "If you have any questions just ask."

That's simply taking everyone as stupid.

[bbit]

Well that' the second time today I've seen a correspondence ask them a question and the response was "If you have any questions just ask."

That's simply taking everyone as stupid.

deleting the comment = hiding something  which is even worst then not answering it!

[Smalleyster]

Dwolla's F.B statement ?

That's basically the same non-answer they emailed back to me. So I just emailed the back the link to TH's blog statement. I don't expect to hear anything more from them other than declaring bankruptcy soon.