Using Liberty Reserve? READ THIS NOW!

[bitdragon]

We could all be points of entrance and exit in the Bitcoin network. The read on ghost walker is fascinating.

I offer you Internet Cash Cards and Travel Cards with no name on them in a choice of 3 currencies: EUR CHF USD
Limit of 10K in all currencies. Refillable not more than 100K in a 365 day period. I need to do refills in cash.
Not sure how many cards I can get though but at least a few.

Characteristics:
Internet Cash: Only on the Internet where Mastercard displayed. No physical card needed. 3USD for each transaction.
16digit, expiration date (2015), 3digit code will be provided.
Internet-Code as well to view balance and transactions.

Travel Card: Not for Internet. Used where Maestro accepted. Physical card required. 3USD for each withdrawal, 1USD for each transaction.

For me, it seems the Travel Card is more attractive but I got the Internet Cash one to start....
I can get bitcoins from you and credit your account in the same day, provided I have enough cash

Started an auction on http://bitcoinmarket.ch/item.php?id=2 for a 200USD Cash Card.
PM if interested in any particular card and amount. Ideally, someone willing to reuse/refill in the future.

If there is demand for high amounts like 100KUSD , I thought others could contribute a wire transfer, or cash and get some BTC too, hopefully at a good rate.

[Cryptoman]

Nevertheless, I would certainly recommend to Mt Gox and others in the US to register as an MSB.  It's not as complicated or expensive as it sounds, and it basically involves the following:

....

• KYC: You are expected know to details on your website's users, primarily name, address and tax ID, in case law enforcement comes calling.

That would totally kill it for me.  I refuse to do business with anyone who asks for government-issued numbers or identification.  This defeats the whole purpose of bitcoin, imho.  It is then no longer the people's free currency.  I'm afraid we will have to solve the exchange problem in another manner.

[The Madhatter]

Wouldn't that make them even more vulnerable to US government stupid laws?

Oh, well I was under the assumption that Jed had a bank account outside of the US. His corporation isn't a US one.

Yes, a US bank account will just get you fisted without lube.

While they keep with LR they are vulnerable "only" to Costa Rica government and whichever government controls the data center where they are hosted.

This is no longer the case.

[The Madhatter]

IMHO, it's actually beneficial for Bitcoin that fiat exchange mechanism problems continue. It gives a strong incentive for "the average citizen" to enter the B economy via trading good and services, AND stay in it to avoid the exchange hassles...

+1

This would be ideal, but it wouldn't always work out. :/

I've closed my LR account, and plan to use exchangers only when it's unavoidable. Thank you, Madhatter! You are a very valuable member of the Bitcoin community!

I'm glad I could be of service.

[The Madhatter]

I don't get the concern... when you do a bank wire, doesn't that pretty much already make your identity available to the US government,

That depends on where you are wiring to/from. It also depends on the system that is being used to conduct the wire. The entire world doesn't revolve around the US. Just conduct your business outside of it.

in addition to putting the transaction right under their nose?  The owner of MtGox doesn't appear outrageously concerned about being anonymous, as he seems willing to readily identify himself to his own prospective customers.

Sure. He's running a company in plain sight. Why would he hide?

I was talking about insulating MtGox and his customers from a potential Liberty Reserve collapse more than anything else. Replacing Liberty Reserve with direct bank wire (I was under the initial assumption that MtGox's corporation was outside of the US) would be the fastest way to avoid any potential problem. A better/more private solution could be put into place later on, of course.

[The Madhatter]

At what point does allowing people to hold a credit with you, for use at your site, make you a bank?

*sigh* This again? A bank writes loans and pays interest to depositors.

If you buy a bank charter what privileges are you granted? Those privileges are what makes a bank "a bank".

[The Madhatter]

That would totally kill it for me.  I refuse to do business with anyone who asks for government-issued numbers or identification.  This defeats the whole purpose of bitcoin, imho.  It is then no longer the people's free currency.  I'm afraid we will have to solve the exchange problem in another manner.

I agree. I wouldn't even touch MtGox if they required those things, or any other business for that matter.

[TheKoziTwo]

Oh, well I was under the assumption that Jed had a bank account outside of the US. His corporation isn't a US one.

You are correct. A bank account in Finland.

[davout]

This thread is really interesting...

[jgarzik]

That would totally kill it for me.  I refuse to do business with anyone who asks for government-issued numbers or identification.  This defeats the whole purpose of bitcoin, imho.  It is then no longer the people's free currency.  I'm afraid we will have to solve the exchange problem in another manner.

I agree. I wouldn't even touch MtGox if they required those things, or any other business for that matter.

That illustrates the difference between mainstream and non-mainstream users.

In the US, your real name, address, and tax ID # are all associated with your bank accounts and brokerage accounts.  This obviously does not alarm the populace at large, who continue to bank or buy stocks.

If Mt Gox started requiring KYC for accounts > $100 or > $500, I think that would be a fantastic signal of mainstream bitcoin acceptance, and a sign that Mt Gox will remain viable long term.

[Cryptoman]

That illustrates the difference between mainstream and non-mainstream users.

In the US, your real name, address, and tax ID # are all associated with your bank accounts and brokerage accounts.  This obviously does not alarm the populace at large, who continue to bank or buy stocks.

If Mt Gox started requiring KYC for accounts > $100 or > $500, I think that would be a fantastic signal of mainstream bitcoin acceptance, and a sign that Mt Gox will remain viable long term.

I think what we really need are at least two major Bitcoin exchanges, one in a welfare/warfare/police state like the U.S., where customers agree to give up their privacy in exchange for being "protected," and another in a peaceful, privacy-respecting jurisdiction that's not likely to give in to OECD arm twisting anytime soon. 

[Mike Hearn]

Right. I don't think it's reasonable to say the "point" of BitCoin is anonymity. That's just a quick way to get the whole endevour classified as a complicated and unusual money laundering operation. And not all of us care about anonymity, or we might care but only for an alternative persona and the bulk of trades are still done under our real identity.

BitCoin has many advantages over traditional electronic payments. It's not even especially great for anonymity today, somebody would have to run a trustworthy mixer service for that.

Whilst I'm not a fan of the USG, having a licensed exchange that accepts bank wires would be a good thing. You don't have to use it, but a legally approved way to get state currencies into and out of BitCoins would reassure many who are attracted by BitCoins other benefits.

[maxvendor]

People get around the KYC rules in other currencies easily. If the limit is $1k then you use 10 different exchangers to fund $10k with no ID
Exchangers in Russia/Latvia/Vietnam don't care at all about KYC you could fund 100k through them no questions asked right now if you wanted.

MtGox could take ID but eventually somebody is just going to give them fake scans. During an raid/audit (which will eventually happen.. especially if Wikileaks suddenly advertises they accept bitcoin for donations) every ID that ends up being phony could cause problems for the admin, as they will be looking for any excuse to shut it down. Even if the charges are all false, authorities play what is known as the 'holding game' meaning they have all the time in world to throw baseless charges at you and tie you up in court for infinity. Because you are a person who needs food/shelter you can't afford to have everything on hold for months/years at a time while trying to clear your name.

I recommend instantly moving to a Tor hidden service, hosted offshore and whoever runs it should be anonymous. Tell people to check safeorscam.com if they want reviews, no need to put your name or any identifying characteristics on the site. US is too dangerous to do anything that isn't sanctioned by a thousand corporations. The entire financial system is deeply entrenched in corporatism they will do whatever they can to destroy competition to their 2 billion a second in transactions MC/Visa and Paypal systems.

[Anonymous]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110202/03320812922.shtml

I'll just leave this here.

[kiba]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110202/03320812922.shtml

I'll just leave this here.

That have nothing to do what we're talking here, except maybe only tangentially.

[nanaimogold]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110202/03320812922.shtml

I'll just leave this here.

And if we are going to stand for that, we might as well just stick to using credit cards.

Which brings us back to the worry that LR is becoming a bank.

[Mahkul]

What we need is a separate exchange in each country matchmaking people who want to sell/buy bitcoin and not charging commission (or at most charging commission n Bitcoin only which will be hard to trace or tax, at least right now). Correct me if I am wrong - how could such a service be classified as illegal? It's like running an auction portal.

I read someone said bitcoinmarket was in danger? How are they in danger if they only matchmake buyers and sellers (unless there is something I don't know). It is a different story if you accept bank transfers onto your own bank account and then "top-up" people's accounts with this money (like bitcoin-central does) - then it looks like you actually make a profit.

EDIT: OK, such a scenario doesn't keep buyer and seller anonymous, but what difference does this make? Who cares whom they sell BTC to or buy from? I certainly do not and I don't care whether they know what paypal or bank account the money came from. All they know is that I bought or sold bitcoins, they don't know where they came from or where they're going to.

Also, the buyer and the seller can arrange an anonymous cash transaction (since they're in the same country), and with the reputation system, trust shouldn't be a problem.

[nanaimogold]

Argh.

If you use monies, you are under contract with the issuer.

Paypal is not a digital currency, it is a payment processor, a carrier of fiat money.

Any trades of bitcoin for fiat money puts the parties subject to that contract.

The SS will kick in the door and arrest anyone that their owners tell them to arrest. Private currencies undermine their owner's carefully crafted illusion of monopoly in money creation.

Money problems and control issues are not a new thing. Digital currencies are not a new thing. Persecutions and prosecutions of facilitators of private money is not a new thing.

I wish you kids would take some time to study the history. What you think is fair or equitable has no parallel in reality. This is a power struggle and the enemy owns your government and directs it's police. They own the drug trade, arms trade, public relations, gambling and other vice. They are not elected. If they catch you in their house using your own home-made poker chips, they will jail or kill your ass. By it's nature, exchange in or out of fiat money puts the exchanger clearly in the house.

Back to the subject at hand; What is up with LR?

I am in contact with the founders of LR, whom I have known and done business with since before the creation of LR in '02, and have a relationship with someone on the inside who just came back to Canada from Costa Rica. I am assured that there is no bank charter contract pending and that the increased KYC is only for the protection of customers against crackers and lost passwords. Do I believe this? No, I do not.

The owners of the governments have a long history of slow incrementalism toward collectivist totality. Today LR want you to verify that you have used your registered (slave) name. Who knows when, but sometime soon I predict that they will want to verify addresses. Then they will attempt to bring users under statutes that will turn LR into another payment processor. The gun held to the head of the trustee will remain unseen, but you can be sure it exists. For every stick there is a corresponding carrot. In this case the promise of charter.

On the other hand, there is no reason to panic. LR is not going to become a carrier of fiat anytime soon. After watching a half dozen previous systems fall to the tyranny, I have developed a good sense of timing my exit. Until LR starts freezing accounts pending presentation of gov issued (slave) ID, I'm not going to worry.

LR's primary exchanger just came to me with the offer of zero cost in. I predict that we will see out exchanges get more expensive and in exchanges might pay a premium, but I don't see the jackboots grabbing the loot quite yet.

Use it as it was intended - a communication vector, not a savings account.

[markm]

This kind of crap makes landlubber / snailbuck currency ridiculously useless for netizens.

If we stick to bitcoin we can hopefully keep transaction costs nice and low, it seems the costs come in whenever one tries to actually make use of stupid previous-millennia earthling currencies. It seems the only reason that stuff seemed at all useful in previous millennia was because people were lugging it around in ships and wagons and carts and sacks and chests and bags and pockets plus maybe happened to have enough weaponry handy to keep those containers from being ransacked en-route...

-MarkM-

[error]

Now we just have to keep our hard drives and USB sticks from being ransacked.