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Lupus_Yonderboy
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July 27, 2011, 03:00:30 AM |
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Unfortunately because of this I will no longer be doing business with Tradehill. Up until now I have had the utmost respect for the way they have run their business and how they have been open and forthright with information. I cannot, however, in good faith continue to do business with a politically slanted exchange. While I am sure there are many RP supporters on this forum, there are still a number of people who use bitcoin that are not. Bitcoin != Libertarianism, and the more you try to make it so, the more you push away the mainstream.
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"You Asked For Change, We Gave You Coins" -- casascius
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Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
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Meatpile
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July 27, 2011, 03:09:00 AM |
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Unfortunately because of this I will no longer be doing business with Tradehill. Up until now I have had the utmost respect for the way they have run their business and how they have been open and forthright with information. I cannot, however, in good faith continue to do business with a politically slanted exchange. While I am sure there are many RP supporters on this forum, there are still a number of people who use bitcoin that are not. Bitcoin != Libertarianism, and the more you try to make it so, the more you push away the mainstream.
So you are using your own political bias to hate on someone else's political preference? It is not like he is forcing every customer to donate an amount. Why wouldn't you just commend his open and honest nature? Do you really like businesses and politicians that just tell you whatever they think you want to hear? Or any amount of truth or fact once in a while? |
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Sukrim
Legendary
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Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006
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July 27, 2011, 03:17:28 AM |
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So you are using your own political bias to hate on someone else's political preference? It is not like he is forcing every customer to donate an amount. Why wouldn't you just commend his open and honest nature? Do you really like businesses and politicians that just tell you whatever they think you want to hear? Or any amount of truth or fact once in a while? There's a difference between voicing an opinion somewhere and (ab-)using your own business to do politics. Tradehill has a lot of customers that are NOT in the US and for whom it is illegal to donate to Ron Paul. In the end discussions here are pointless. All that needs to be done is to send Mr. RP a (few) mail(s) with links to the "donation" page at tradehill. I hope his team is not that stupid to take donations that might get Mr. Paul in a lot of trouble. Also you could send this to a few "real" newspapers/media companies and tell them that Mr. Paul might get some illegal donations. This might harm him probably much more than those few USD help. |
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Lupus_Yonderboy
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July 27, 2011, 03:18:50 AM |
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I thought they were running an exchange, not a PAC. And I cannot guarantee that my transaction fees are not being put in with those donations. Since this business openly supports a candidate that I do not, I will not conduct any further transactions with it. Plain and simple.
Oh, and the FEC takes a real dim view of foreign based businesses donating to presidential candidates. I would hate to have my money tied up somewhere like that when the legal troubles start. The US does have an extradition treaty with Chile.
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BitOffer
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July 27, 2011, 03:20:50 AM |
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Using the anonymous currency to donate to charity is a way to know for sure that you're money is being received by the receiver. If Haiti took Bitcoin donations we would know for sure that most of it arrived without administration, third party, corruption fees.
Donating anonymously to political protagonists, while not without faults(if you can do it, so can the opposition), is another one of Bitcoin's great features. No one plays fair with such high stakes. Fair is just an out side illusion. If you are serious enough about winning, this is one for the war chest.
When you donate to TH fro RP with Bitcoins, we can all check and see exactly how much was donated to that address. However, I dont know how we would verify if that same amount was sent to the intended destination or not. Many details unknown.
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Sannyasi
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July 27, 2011, 03:24:03 AM |
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should give the option to donate to anyone running, not because i support any of them, i doubt anyone who gets elected will do any real good- things will just be a bit different. i don't like the idea of favortism.... so i won't be using tradehill anymore as well
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Sukrim
Legendary
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Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006
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July 27, 2011, 03:25:48 AM |
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When you donate to TH fro RP with Bitcoins, we can all check and see exactly how much was donated to that address. However, I dont know how we would verify if that same amount was sent to the intended destination or not. Many details unknown.
That's the thing: You have NO IDEA how much is donated, to which address of by whom: Tradehill will just cash out your donation in USD, RP EXPLICITLY mentions no donations in bitcoin are allowed! |
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elggawf
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July 27, 2011, 03:26:54 AM |
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I don't tend to put all my faith in science. Lots of things that were "facts" when I was a kid have been proven wrong and replaced with a new "fact", how many things that you believe as fact today will be proven wrong tomorrow? Is there even a scientific method when it comes to the theory of evolution? or is it just darwins little drawing? <-- this is a serious question actually. That's uhh... kind of the definition of science. Science is a quest for knowledge, which is ever more refined. The most exciting times in science are those days when something we knew for a fact yesterday turns out to be wrong. There is scientific support for much of the theory of evolution - we can observe many things in nature and in the lab that lend support to it (such as the bacteria in a lab experiment which was frozen at different generations, and spontaneously evolved to eat a new kind of food - they can unfreeze any of that same generation and they will repeatedly keep evolving in the expected way if the circumstances are kept the same). The fact that Ron Paul, a doctor, puts his personal religion before this rudimentary understanding* is disheartening... it doesn't fully disqualify him from leadership, because unlike much of the religious right his position is averse to allowing religion to enter into politics. It just doesn't look that good on him. Unfortunately because of this I will no longer be doing business with Tradehill. Up until now I have had the utmost respect for the way they have run their business and how they have been open and forthright with information. I cannot, however, in good faith continue to do business with a politically slanted exchange. While I am sure there are many RP supporters on this forum, there are still a number of people who use bitcoin that are not. Bitcoin != Libertarianism, and the more you try to make it so, the more you push away the mainstream.
I take it you never shop at Home Depot, Target, Walmart... and you choose your toilet paper really carefully? Almost every company out there has some kind of political slant. The political slant isn't what's wrong with this, the fact that they've not (I don't believe) reasonably demonstrated they're even allowed to do this is where the issue lies. |
^_^
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Lupus_Yonderboy
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July 27, 2011, 03:51:33 AM
Last edit: July 27, 2011, 04:28:16 AM by Lupus_Yonderboy |
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I take it you never shop at Home Depot, Target, Walmart... and you choose your toilet paper really carefully? Almost every company out there has some kind of political slant. The political slant isn't what's wrong with this, the fact that they've not (I don't believe) reasonably demonstrated they're even allowed to do this is where the issue lies.
Actually I don't usually shop in those places. I tend to use either smaller locally based businesses or online shopping as much as possible. And I never use any Georgia-Pacific/Dixie products either. Granted sometimes I need something immediately that only one of the big box stores can fill...but none of them have a place on the pinpad when checking out to donate to a specific candidate. If they did something that obvious they would lose a lot more customers (if it were legal, and I don't think it is.) |
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DrYe5 (OP)
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July 27, 2011, 04:29:49 AM
Last edit: July 27, 2011, 04:41:28 AM by DrYe5 |
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When you donate to TH fro RP with Bitcoins, we can all check and see exactly how much was donated to that address. However, I dont know how we would verify if that same amount was sent to the intended destination or not. Many details unknown.
That's the thing: You have NO IDEA how much is donated, to which address of by whom: Tradehill will just cash out your donation in USD, RP EXPLICITLY mentions no donations in bitcoin are allowed! Tradehill needs to clear up some questions, but this is a really good start. Just because he gets USD, doesn't mean he doesn't know it's from the bitcoin community. Even if he ends up returning the donations, this is a very positive message for the bitcoin community to send Washington. This is the kind of thing that will enable bitcoins longevity. There is a lot of precedent for this kind of donation bundling. However, because bitcoins aren't recognized by the government as money, a lot of campaign laws are a big question mark. People claiming it's against the law need to show some JDs. The Ron Paul campaign's initial response to me points to a lack of legal understanding by the FEC, "it would probably confuse the FEC". |
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Sukrim
Legendary
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Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006
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July 27, 2011, 04:45:55 AM |
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I find it weird that you need to hand your politicians money to send positive signals, but that's not my business/country luckily. Anyways, according to http://www.ronpaul2012.com/acceptable-donation-methods/: As always FEC Rules Apply:
Federal law requires all online contributors to confirm that the following statements are true and accurate. If you cannot confirm each statement, you are not eligible to contribute to Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Committee.
1. This contribution is made on a personal credit or debit card or PayPal account for which I have the legal obligation to pay, and is made neither on a corporate or business entity card or account nor on the card or account of another.
2. I am a United States citizen or a lawfully-admitted permanent resident.
3. I am making this contribution with my own personal funds, and I will not be reimbursed by anyone for this contribution.
Contributions from corporations, national banks and federal government contractors are prohibited. Employees of these types of entities are still able to contribute using their own personal funds.
Bitcoins, e-gold, and/or other electronic or other types of currencies are not accepted by the campaign. Tradehill DOES get reimbursed in bitcoins for these donations, they are a corporation and direct Bitcoin donations are out of question. If Jered does donate as a private person, he still breaks rule #3 by being reimbursed and not using just his own money to pay. All in all I would find it weird if I shop at Amazon for example and then get asked if I want gift wrapping and/or donate to a presidential candidate. Seriously, if you want to have donations, by all means do so if you can't help it, but do it on a clearly seperated page, not directly above Red Cross and EFF (who no longer accept Bitcoin donations btw.). Especially since there are only 2 big parties in the US of A I find it quite weird from a business perspective to screw with the political opinion of ~50% of your US customers and 100% of your foreign ones. |
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DrYe5 (OP)
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July 27, 2011, 04:55:18 AM |
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Tradehill DOES get reimbursed in bitcoins for these donations, they are a corporation and direct Bitcoin donations are out of question.
If Jered does donate as a private person, he still breaks rule #3 by being reimbursed and not using just his own money to pay. So you don't seem to get that in the eyes of the law, BTC isn't money. What's up with that? |
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Sukrim
Legendary
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Activity: 2618
Merit: 1006
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July 27, 2011, 05:01:27 AM |
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So you don't seem to get that in the eyes of the law, BTC isn't money. What's up with that?
So if you hand me 1000 Bitcoins and I convert them to USD and donate 10 000 USD I did not get reimbursed? What about gold then? Dwolla? Euros? These are all not allowed as donations but are all possible reimbursements! Hell, if someone values tomatoes a lot and promises to donate 100 USD for every tomato I send by mail, he still gets reimbursed for that money and wouldn't have donated without me sending a tomato in the first place! |
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DrYe5 (OP)
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July 27, 2011, 05:03:52 AM |
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So you don't seem to get that in the eyes of the law, BTC isn't money. What's up with that?
So if you hand me 1000 Bitcoins and I convert them to USD and donate 10 000 USD I did not get reimbursed? What about gold then? Dwolla? Euros? These are all not allowed as donations but are all possible reimbursements! Hell, if someone values tomatoes a lot and promises to donate 100 USD for every tomato I send by mail, he still gets reimbursed for that money and wouldn't have donated without me sending a tomato in the first place! Bitcoins do not have intrinsic value. There, you are wrong. Resolving this argument is not possible without lots of lawyers so I suggest you get whatever candidate, in whatever country you prefer to accept bitcoins and stop hating on progress. |
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casascius
Mike Caldwell
VIP
Legendary
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Activity: 1386
Merit: 1136
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
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July 27, 2011, 05:13:34 AM |
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Tradehill DOES get reimbursed in bitcoins for these donations, they are a corporation and direct Bitcoin donations are out of question.
If Jered does donate as a private person, he still breaks rule #3 by being reimbursed and not using just his own money to pay. So you don't seem to get that in the eyes of the law, BTC isn't money. What's up with that? The argument that "BTC isn't money" for the sake of the FEC would be viewed as nonsense in any US court. |
Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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wumpus
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July 27, 2011, 05:25:57 AM |
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Who said a distributed currency wouldn't change the world... I mean, we're at least giving corporations and the well-off new methods to buy the US government! :p
(I'm just joking, don't take this as flamebait please, I'm not necessarily against this initiative, it does however give an interesting look into what a world with anonymous distributed currencies looks like)
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Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through File → Backup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts. |
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tsvekric
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July 27, 2011, 05:36:20 AM |
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I've been a huge Ron Paul supporter - remember that story last campaign season about how Ron Paul received more donations from people employed by the military than any other Republican candidate? That was me, based on a post I made on facebook that was turned into a blog post that exploded on Digg overnight. I also helped set up the speech he gave to a few thousand people on my campus. I worked with his official campaign on some stuff for a while too.
Anyways, I definitely not like this. I haven't done business with Tradehill and will not even consider it now. Not only do I not like the partisan aspect of it, but there is no real way of knowing how much is actually going to Ron Paul's campaign and how much Tradehill is pocketing. It just is wrong.
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Hey TeKillaSunRise, check it out
-qwe2323
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amincd
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July 27, 2011, 05:37:02 AM
Last edit: July 27, 2011, 06:04:08 AM by amincd |
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I also was a fan of RP until I watched an interview in which he denied evolution. (And I might point out that he is a medical doctor.) Paul does not deny evolution. He thinks it's a pretty logical theory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKAaps6mFYk 3:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiVy2NbWcgo 3:50 In his book, 'Liberty Defined', he stresses that believing in evolution doesn't mean one has to reject God: No one person has perfect knowledge as to man's emergence on this earth. Yet almost everyone has a strong religious, scientific, or emotional opinion he or she considers gospel. The creationists frown on the evolutionists, and the evolutionists dismiss the creationists a kooky and unscientific. Lost in this struggle are those who look objectively at the scientific evidence for evolution without feeling any need to reject the notion of an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator. My personal view is that recognizing the validity of the evolutionary process does not support atheism nor should it diminish one's view about God and the universe. It seems he wants to make clear to his constituents that if he expresses a belief in evolution, he hasn't become an athiest. Maybe his position on evolution IS a little irrational. Maybe he is a little blinded by his religious faith. But maybe he wouldn't have persisted so long in voting 'No' when every else voted 'Yes' if it wasn't for his religious faith. Given the stakes, rejecting someone just because they have an imperfect view on something that they have no intention of legislating on, and which they would pay a heavy political price in return for no benefit if they did take the scientifically more correct stance on, isn't a good trade-off. |
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bitminers
Member
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Activity: 84
Merit: 10
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July 27, 2011, 05:55:48 AM |
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Has anyone even gotten to speak to Ron Paul about his stance on Bitcoin? and Whether or not he supports the idea, I see on his website as mentioned earlier in this post he says he does not accept them.
But some how, it is needed to find out his opinions and views some how on Bitcoin, and see if he is actually PRO Bitcoin or ANTI Bitcoin, it's very well for people to just assume based on what he says with other things etc that he maybe Pro Bitcoin, but realistically he may very well hate the idea, not understand it or has been mis informed.
He obviously has a number of hoops to jump through before you can contact him and get a direct answer from the man himself?
I am not an American citizen so I do not know enough about Ron Paul, I have seen many you tube videos which he impresses me, but we really need to find out:
A) Does He Understand Bitcoin
B) Does He understand the possibilities
C) If He does know the above what is his true opinion, For or Against Bitcoin
Thanks!
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