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Author Topic: [Havelock] The Panama Fund, S.A. Acquires HavelockInvestments.com  (Read 12165 times)
ar9
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November 02, 2013, 09:30:05 PM
 #61

My confidence in Havelock has wavered, for sure.

I know they put forward their intentions are good, but as a business this is par for the course when big changes (like this one) occur.
Havelock has never betrayed my trust, not once, just pointing out that this is a curious move.  I don't believe in complete transparency as any functioning corporation ought not to be fully transparent... this just irked me a bit.

All I'm going to say. 
Hope the ship sails smoothly moving forward.
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November 03, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
 #62

Let's say these guys do move to Panama and have servers in Panama. They are registered in Panama but not for US securities.

What exactly can the SEC do if Panama doesn't cooperate with SEC? Seems like they can't do shit. Please enlighten me.

First off, IANAL. However, I've worked at a global financial institution so I've seen a fair bit of compliance and enforcement action in my time.

The US authorities (SEC, FBI, etc) all work with their local counterparts in countries around the world with the goal of protecting American citizens from 'harm.' In the case of a firm selling unregistered securities to Americans, US laws are certainly being broken - the question is whether or not Panamanian authorities would care. My guess is that the answer would be yes, since Panama and America work closely together, have extradition treaties, etc.

In order for Havelock to steer clear, they're going to at least need to do a minimal amount of effort such as restricting US IP addresses. Whether they have to go through the full effort of verifying addresses and whatnot is going to depend upon Panama securities laws, something which I'm not familiar with.

Just remember - the reach of US law enforcement is global. Short of running a trading operation in North Korea, Iran, China, Russia, etc there needs to be at least partial compliance with US law and full compliance with local law.

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November 03, 2013, 01:51:23 PM
 #63

the reach of US law enforcement is global
In theory, yes.
In practice, governments struggle to close a lot of much more high profile websites.
The Internet, and now Bitcoin is highly censorship resistant.

Not if you feel that bitcoin presents a genuine threat to fiat & the moneyed elite.
If bitcoin truly is a disruptive technology, why wouldn't the powers-that-be pay close attention to it & try to nip it in the bud?
OTOH, if it is just another horsefly not worth a tail swat, you got a point.
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November 03, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
 #64

My point is simple:
Either the governments see bitcoin as a real threat, in which case they will make a serious effort, or they don't, in which case they won't.

Pirate Bay as a threat is no more serious than shoplifting.  Perhaps bitcoin is no more important, though many users here might disagree.
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November 03, 2013, 04:34:33 PM
 #65

Oh I have no doubt they will eventually try. My point is that it isn't easy, even if you have billions of lawyers and lobbying (see The Pirate Bay, which at that points stays up just for the lulz).

Operating a torrent tracker with magnet links is more of a gray area than operating an exchange listing unregistered securities, advertised and sold to the American citizens. I'll agree with you that shutting down an exchange isn't easy and takes months or years to investigate and coordinate with local authorities. However, in the long run, I do not believe that Panamanian authorities will side with Havelock over the SEC. Perhaps operating for 12-18 months with US IP ranges blocked will give enough time to establish a decentralized blockchain based exchange operation. At that point, I see that the risk will shift from the issuer AND exchange operator to purely the issuer being targeted for enforcement, but it still won't go away.

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November 03, 2013, 06:48:50 PM
 #66

I'd be surprised if havelock don't have to vet users to comply with us securities law within 6 months, if not 3. Whilst they are outside the US, the SEC could well put pressure on Panama to shut down havelock. They may not cooperate with the sec in general but that doesn't mean they won't in this case. This just looks like kicking the bucket a bit further away but nothing more. Bitfunder tried all kinds of things but failed.

There are very legitimate reasons that lawyers will advise Belize or Panama, it is not done on some random whim. Those same lawyers will also offer no guarantees because you can't do this and be fully compliant when the law hasn't caught up yet.

I believe Kickstarter also have done illegal or non-legal grey area things for the same reason. Boundaries get pushed, regulation adjusts to match.

What the SEC really care about it Americans losing money. Individual securities may escape scrutiny if people make their money back but an exchange is always going to be studied with deep interest.

Someone posted that the SEC probably aren't concerned. Well you're wrong. They very much are and they have been in touch with at least two of the major exchanges. Those within bitcoin regulatory areas were aware of this issue back in late July as I was investigating the area at the time.
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November 04, 2013, 07:28:12 AM
 #67

My point is simple:
Either the governments see bitcoin as a real threat, in which case they will make a serious effort, or they don't, in which case they won't.

Pirate Bay as a threat is no more serious than shoplifting.  Perhaps bitcoin is no more important, though many users here might disagree.
Exactly so this "official" exchange is just marketing.  Either governments don't give a shit then it doesn't matter and one should be more concerned about the real people behind it or governments get cranky and then it won't matter how "official" the exchange is if they really crack down hard.
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November 04, 2013, 05:11:59 PM
 #68

The Panama Fund, SA has been registered and licensed since 2008 with Superintendencia del Mercado de Valores (English: Superintendency of Securities Market)  as a Sociedades de Inversión Privadas (English: Private Investment Company).
http://www.supervalores.gob.pa/files/Sociedades/Sociedades_Inversion_Privada_DRA.pdf

There will be a FAQ page posted on Havelock later this week addressing further questions and concerns.

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