[Havelock] The Panama Fund, S.A. Acquires HavelockInvestments.com

[jimmothy]

If US indeed doesn't care about exchanges operating in different countries, i believe y'all have been taken for a ride by a couple of foregnese exchanges (BTCT was registered in Belize, as i remember -- a compatriot of Active Mining, who also hail from there).  Why would the two biggest exchanges just pull up stakes & abandon their trusty milkers?


I agree that being small, insignificantly small, makes an exchange irrelevant & not worth an international stamp it would take to squash it.  My point is spazzing around the interwebz & yelling "we're licensed and legit" is not the smartest way to stay off the radar.

You are still failing to realize that there is a huge difference between an unregistered exchange in a country that requires registered exchanges and registered securities; and a registered exchange in a country that does not require registered securities.

According to SEC's own website, they do not include panama as one of the countries that enforces SEC jurisdiction.

Source: https://www.sec.gov/about/offices/oia/oia_cooparrangements.shtml

A banana republic kept alive by the good will of its protectors is not likely to let a Christmas card from Uncle Sam go unanswered.  It's both poor manners & harmful to its health.

You are living in a fantasy if you think a superpower like the US can dictate any countries laws it wants simply because it is "the protector" as you put it.

[drawingthesun]

As far as i know, either the SEC asked them to fold up their circus tents like they claimed they did, or the exchanges are lying through their teeth.  I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

None of the exchanges specifically said anything about SEC contacting them so we cant just assume they were given an ultimatum. It is more likely in my eyes they finally came to see the legal risks they were undertaking and didn't want to spend the time/resources to make their operations legal/safe from SEC. (its easier to just ignore them and keep collecting them bitcoins from the non-americans)

The SEC is our friend here, they JUST passed crowdfunding laws and still I doubt we are on their radar.

We need to stop acting like this is a big deal and just carry on with business

We're probably not yet on their radar, but I don't see the SEC as being our friends here. Unless they come up with some new, more relaxed regulations then they are going to suffocate the Bitcoin securities market because of a high cost of compliance.

Yes, we are on there radar, as they have talked to Ukto about us last month.  I sent Ukto our Belize documents so he could send them to the SEC.

At least we can confirm the SEC has had some contact with Bitfunder, even if it was just about ActiveMining.

[18RATTT]

watching this..

congrats on the acquisition

[thecoinjournal]

If US indeed doesn't care about exchanges operating in different countries, i believe y'all have been taken for a ride by a couple of foregnese exchanges (BTCT was registered in Belize, as i remember -- a compatriot of Active Mining, who also hail from there).  Why would the two biggest exchanges just pull up stakes & abandon their trusty milkers?


I agree that being small, insignificantly small, makes an exchange irrelevant & not worth an international stamp it would take to squash it.  My point is spazzing around the interwebz & yelling "we're licensed and legit" is not the smartest way to stay off the radar.

You are still failing to realize that there is a huge difference between an unregistered exchange in a country that requires registered exchanges and registered securities; and a registered exchange in a country that does not require registered securities.

According to SEC's own website, they do not include panama as one of the countries that enforces SEC jurisdiction.

Source: https://www.sec.gov/about/offices/oia/oia_cooparrangements.shtml

A banana republic kept alive by the good will of its protectors is not likely to let a Christmas card from Uncle Sam go unanswered.  It's both poor manners & harmful to its health.

You are living in a fantasy if you think a superpower like the US can dictate any countries laws it wants simply because it is "the protector" as you put it.

But Belize seems not on the list either?

[kmtan]

Great news!

Congratulations!

[fractal02]

Great !

Good move

[bigdude]

Interesting news ... does that mean the atrocious GUI of havelock will be improved ?

[crumbs]

If US indeed doesn't care about exchanges operating in different countries, i believe y'all have been taken for a ride by a couple of foregnese exchanges (BTCT was registered in Belize, as i remember -- a compatriot of Active Mining, who also hail from there).  Why would the two biggest exchanges just pull up stakes & abandon their trusty milkers?


I agree that being small, insignificantly small, makes an exchange irrelevant & not worth an international stamp it would take to squash it.  My point is spazzing around the interwebz & yelling "we're licensed and legit" is not the smartest way to stay off the radar.

You are still failing to realize that there is a huge difference between an unregistered exchange in a country that requires registered exchanges and registered securities; and a registered exchange in a country that does not require registered securities.

According to SEC's own website, they do not include panama as one of the countries that enforces SEC jurisdiction.

Source: https://www.sec.gov/about/offices/oia/oia_cooparrangements.shtml

A banana republic kept alive by the good will of its protectors is not likely to let a Christmas card from Uncle Sam go unanswered.  It's both poor manners & harmful to its health.

You are living in a fantasy if you think a superpower like the US can dictate any countries laws it wants simply because it is "the protector" as you put it.

1. See reply from thecoinjournal re: jurisdiction.

2. Selling unregistered securities to US persons runs afoul of US law, regardless of whether that law is enforced.  Claims to the contrary are simply false.  There's nothing here to debate.

3. If you feel that facts & empirical data are fantasy, and repeating "this time, it's gonna be different!" thrice will bring you back to Kansas, keep on investin'.

So continue to ignore every warning.  Continue shrieking "ZOMG WAI, WAI?!1!" each time another exchange website packs up & splits with ur monyz.  You deserve the lulzy fallout.

Edit (If it's not already obvious to everyone):
It is much harder to obtain a fishing licence in US or Canada than it is to incorporate & become a licensed exchange/medical doctor/ghostbuster/prince in Panama.  

[jeffshed]

the sec this the sec that

FUCK the SEC!!!

stop talking about them. they don't care that much about our coin games...yet

[burnside]

the sec this the sec that

FUCK the SEC!!!

stop talking about them. they don't care that much about our coin games...yet

Yes, they do.  I suspect if we were talking USD trading at the USD values these exchanges were working with, they might not, but Bitcoin is in the news a lot lately, so there's a lot of focus on it.  Thus pressure on them to make sure all the rules get followed.

November 1, 2013 - Havelock Investments (HavelockInvestments.com), a leading Bitcoin Denominated Investment Fund, announced today that it has executed a definitive agreement to be acquired by The Panama Fund, S.A, a fully licensed and registered Panamanian Investment Company.

The acquisitions creates the world's first, fully licensed, Bitcoin Denominated Fund Exchange, where companies from around the world will be able to raise capital directly, through the exclusive use of Bitcoins.
With this acquisition HavelockInvestments.com will be able to maintain its current Funds, as well as expand its operations, while attracting new opportunities in the rapidly expanding Bitcoin Marketplace.
The original HavelockInvestments.com team will remain in place and will play a key role in the future growth of the company.

We'll be following up with inquiries during the next week.

In general you have to follow the law where you live.  If online gambling is illegal where you live, you can't run an online gambling company in another country.  If dealing heroin is illegal where you live, you can't run an op that deals it in another country.  Sure, your chances of getting caught are lower, but if you're successful then sooner or later someone notices.

Kudos to the team here for reducing exposure.  Now they just have to follow through and move to Panama.  

[coinfresh]

Let's say these guys do move to Panama and have servers in Panama. They are registered in Panama but not for US securities.

What exactly can the SEC do if Panama doesn't cooperate with SEC? Seems like they can't do shit. Please enlighten me.

[crumbs]

Let's say these guys do move to Panama and have servers in Panama. They are registered in Panama but not for US securities.

What exactly can the SEC do if Panama doesn't cooperate with SEC? Seems like they can't do shit. Please enlighten me.

Every TLA loves a challenge that may boost its clout, coinfresh.
Plastering "Seized by da SEC" across HavelockInvestments.com seems like a likely warning shot if a friendly "wrap it up, kids" email proves noneffective.

[User705]

This is all irrelevant marketing fluff.  The reasons various regulations regarding exchanges exist besides maintaining monopolies and preventing small time competition which is a separate issue is to give you legal means to prove ownership and seize funds and stocks.  In the bitcoin world that is irrelevant since you can't seize bitcoins nor am I sure how you'd accomplish seizing bitcoin denominated stock such as ASICMiner or others without their cooperation.  So really the only concern you should have with a bitcoin exchange is how trustworthy are the operators.  Legal structure or physical location are useless issues.  They might as we'll be on the moon.

[crumbs]

...In the bitcoin world that is irrelevant since you can't seize bitcoins nor am I sure how you'd accomplish seizing bitcoin denominated stock ...

Seizing the servers comes to mind.
With Bitfunder, this would also provide all the necessary personal information of all the participants -- both issuers & holders.
From there, a child could take it.  People will trip over each other to be the first to rat  

[User705]

...In the bitcoin world that is irrelevant since you can't seize bitcoins nor am I sure how you'd accomplish seizing bitcoin denominated stock ...

Seizing the servers comes to mind.
With Bitfunder, this would also provide all the necessary personal information of all the participants -- both issuers & holders.
From there, a child could take it.  People will trip over each other to be the first to rat  

Agreed but then what?  Who would be rating on whom?  The US regulation is "designed" for retail customer protection.  It's not illegal for me to buy an unregistered security it's illegal for someone to sell it to me.  So for customers the worry is to make sure the operators properly protect their BTC and stock holdings.  This isn't Silk Road where purchasing/possessing drugs or drug proceeds is illegal per se for both sellers and buyers.

[BtcBling]

Great news, following!
People can legally own companies incorporated on different countires. In such case the only thing that really matters is that the company follows laws of its jurisdiction. Of course there can be official / behind the scenes debate / pressure between governments. I see gambling rugulations quite corresponding to this.

[crumbs]

...In the bitcoin world that is irrelevant since you can't seize bitcoins nor am I sure how you'd accomplish seizing bitcoin denominated stock ...

Seizing the servers comes to mind.
With Bitfunder, this would also provide all the necessary personal information of all the participants -- both issuers & holders.
From there, a child could take it.  People will trip over each other to be the first to rat  

Agreed but then what?  Who would be rating on whom?  The US regulation is "designed" for retail customer protection.  It's not illegal for me to buy an unregistered security it's illegal for someone to sell it to me.  So for customers the worry is to make sure the operators properly protect their BTC and stock holdings.  This isn't Silk Road where purchasing/possessing drugs or drug proceeds is illegal per se for both sellers and buyers.

No no no.  The ratting i'm talking about would be exchange operators vs issuers.
The buyers will be tangentially involved -- as innocent bystanders who serve as witnesses.  I'm surprised it has to be spelled out.
The forum & IRC logs will provide enough evidence to fill the gaps.

Keep in mind that most people here are not career criminals.  A phone call from LEO would be enough to get many to cooperate.  Some will take the same self-righteous stance they talk on the interwebz, only to learn how unpleasant & most of all unsatisfyingly & totally unlike TV IRL is.

When you get pulled over with a car full of shit that shouldn't be there, it's not you who makes the cop ask you to step out of the car.  It's the clueless idiot in the passenger seat who starts yapping about his rights.

[User705]

Your statements about RL may be true but the issuers aren't in the US and not actively marketing to US.  This is the same as current gambling issue.  You don't see the US chasing down offshore online gambling sites do you?

[crumbs]

Your statements about RL may be true but the issuers aren't in the US and not actively marketing to US.  This is the same as current gambling issue.  You don't see the US chasing down offshore online gambling sites do you?

The issuers are in US, the securities are not registered anywhere, the exchange is Canadian.  There's a Panama shell, but it carries as much legal clout as the toy detective badge from a cereal box.  It provides as much protection as burnside's Belize incorporation -- none.

As far as not targeting US, OP disagrees:

... and that there will be no changes to existing user requirements (ie US users are fine). ...

[canth]

Let's say these guys do move to Panama and have servers in Panama. They are registered in Panama but not for US securities.

What exactly can the SEC do if Panama doesn't cooperate with SEC? Seems like they can't do shit. Please enlighten me.

First off, IANAL. However, I've worked at a global financial institution so I've seen a fair bit of compliance and enforcement action in my time.

The US authorities (SEC, FBI, etc) all work with their local counterparts in countries around the world with the goal of protecting American citizens from 'harm.' In the case of a firm selling unregistered securities to Americans, US laws are certainly being broken - the question is whether or not Panamanian authorities would care. My guess is that the answer would be yes, since Panama and America work closely together, have extradition treaties, etc.

In order for Havelock to steer clear, they're going to at least need to do a minimal amount of effort such as restricting US IP addresses. Whether they have to go through the full effort of verifying addresses and whatnot is going to depend upon Panama securities laws, something which I'm not familiar with.

Just remember - the reach of US law enforcement is global. Short of running a trading operation in North Korea, Iran, China, Russia, etc there needs to be at least partial compliance with US law and full compliance with local law.