BitShares and Mastercoin - a comparison

[sumantso]

I've found the Bitshare thing is quite wtf. They released cpu intensive protoshare coin, diff rose so damn quick that after a few days it's impossible to mine for small players, so coins are sieged by serious miners just like other coins, then a couple months later they released memory coin 2.0 that wtf benefits protoshare owners, a boring scrypt coin just to make protoshare more valuable, then they released anther wtf angelshare having the similar scheme as mastercoin exodus. Not totally that I missed the protoshare bus, but their coin distribution scheme seems to be way more evil than MSC's. Also I haven't heard they've done anything significant to the actual bitshare development.

As a small miner myself (a mining PC besides my laptop), I am delighted about PTS distribution. I saw the ANN topic here (a day before I think), and then at the start I downloaded on both and started mining. I used only 1 thread on laptop (for safety) but if I knew how quick it will succeed I would have gone full pelt and destroyed my laptop

Anyways, I fail to see how mastercoin or nextcoin had a fairer distribution. Both asked for money at start, which for all we know may have been a scam (just wait an see a lot more donation based startups will crop up in the next few weeks). PTS on the other hand allowed me to mine on my own and then see if the project is good enough to continue.

I don't have Mastercoin or Next, coz I hardly have much BTC, and paying strangers over internet over promises was a big leap for me. If Invictus had a similar model I would have missed out on this too.

[ripper234]

MemoryCoin was not released by US nor was it based on scrypt...  given you don't have your facts straight I just have one thing to say.. 'wtf'?

In his defense I also read/understood somewhere the MemoryCoin was released by you guys.
It surprised me to read above that it is not your project.

[ripper234]

You forgot to mention the firing of their CEO

Link?

Anyways, I fail to see how mastercoin or nextcoin had a fairer distribution. Both asked for money at start, which for all we know may have been a scam (just wait an see a lot more donation based startups will crop up in the next few weeks). PTS on the other hand allowed me to mine on my own and then see if the project is good enough to continue.

I don't have Mastercoin or Next, coz I hardly have much BTC, and paying strangers over internet over promises was a big leap for me. If Invictus had a similar model I would have missed out on this too.

Mining is quite similar in terms of fairness to IPO based issuance.
Stronger players with larger funds = larger CPUs = larger EC2 farms can mine more.

It's a fundamental property of crypto-currencies that they are never democratic, but rather they reward those willing to put in large amounts of capital in whatever way (CPUs/ASICs/BTC/...)

I personally consider IPO based issuance to be fairer, because mining is a specialized field, while today everybody can have easy access to BTC (depending on their capital of course).

[charleshoskinson]

Link?

Don't need one. I was the CEO of Invictus Innovations until October. I was pushed out of the company and totally divested in early October.

You may notice my name on the original whitepaper: http://static.squarespace.com/static/51df1ba4e4b08840dcfce197/t/5212ca63e4b0348bfd2276c6/1376963171729/BitShares%20White%20Paper%20(2).pdf

And also the references in the coindesk article http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/

In his defense I also read/understood somewhere the MemoryCoin was released by you guys.
It surprised me to read above that it is not your project.

That's what happens when you hire the guy who implemented it to build your own coin. I wish the invictus team well.

[Herp]

This only applies to DACs that use code developed by Invictus or would like to be promoted by us.  Obviously we cannot enforce any particular behavior (See MemoryCoin 2.0 which did 1%).

However, if you build off of BitShares and related code, then paying 20% for using the codebase as a starting point for your DAC is very reasonable.  

Link?

Don't need one. I was the CEO of Invictus Innovations until October. I was pushed out of the company and totally divested in early October.

You may notice my name on the original whitepaper: http://static.squarespace.com/static/51df1ba4e4b08840dcfce197/t/5212ca63e4b0348bfd2276c6/1376963171729/BitShares%20White%20Paper%20(2).pdf

And also the references in the coindesk article http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/

In his defense I also read/understood somewhere the MemoryCoin was released by you guys.
It surprised me to read above that it is not your project.

That's what happens when you hire the guy who implemented it to build your own coin. I wish the invictus team well.

So what you're saying is that Invictus basically screwed their shareholders by only paying them 1% instead of the 20%(10 angels/10 protoshare owners) and got away with it by saying someone else launched this Memory Coin, when actually it was them all along?

[sumantso]

So what you're saying is that Invictus basically screwed their shareholders by only paying them 1% instead of the 20%(10 angels/10 protoshare owners) and got away with it by saying someone else launched this Memory Coin, when actually it was them all along?

No, they hired the guy to build and release protoshares. After that he was free to do his own stuff; including releasing some supposedly optimised miner with a PTS fee.

That guy had released the original memorycoin earlier which went nowhere. In the PTS ANN thread on the first page you can see people asking why he is releasing another coin without supporting the first, and he replied he was paid for this project. I believe the memorycoin 2.0 incorporating 1% to PTS was an attempt to make it interesting (but it will probably fail again).

[sumantso]

I personally consider IPO based issuance to be fairer, because mining is a specialized field, while today everybody can have easy access to BTC (depending on their capital of course).

Anyone with a CPU could have mined PTS at the start. Unless somebody is checking bitcointalk on PIII.

I agree with most of the points, but asking for BTC at the start to distribute coins is basically asking money for some promises. Even now there are 2 threads asking for BTC to distribute new coins. At least with mining you can get and keep some and follow it to see how it goes. And yes, I am probably biased (its hard to keep an even viewpoint).

[charleshoskinson]

So what you're saying is that Invictus basically screwed their shareholders by only paying them 1% instead of the 20%(10 angels/10 protoshare owners) and got away with it by saying someone else launched this Memory Coin, when actually it was them all along?

I'm not saying anything. I don't care about what Invictus does anymore. Dan Larimer made it clear what he felt my contributions to the company were and our future working relationship.

[romerun]

Sigh.. can somebody make a timeline of what's going on this whole bitshare thing ?

Anyone with a CPU could have mined PTS at the start. Unless somebody is checking bitcointalk on PIII.

I don't know about that, I mined it the first day with core i5 laptop, did not get shit, so I went on firing up 5 cheap DO instances for 2 days, still got nothing, a friend fired up a few 32 cores ec2 spot instances got 4 blocks in the first day in a row then got nothing later until he stopped.

[BitThink]

So what you're saying is that Invictus basically screwed their shareholders by only paying them 1% instead of the 20%(10 angels/10 protoshare owners) and got away with it by saying someone else launched this Memory Coin, when actually it was them all along?

I'm not saying anything. I don't care about what Invictus does anymore. Dan Larimer made it clear what he felt my contributions to the company were and our future working relationship.

I am quite curious about how you were pushed away since you are the co-founder, and co-founder cannot be just fired. Does it relate to the investors from China?

[charleshoskinson]

In invictus land they can. Li Xiaolai is a man of great integrity and honor. No this was solely Dan's decision and this isn't the forum to discuss it.

Ethereum and some other projects I'm working on are going to completely replace the need for keyhotee and bitshares.  It makes me sad that I can't do it with the company I helped fund, named and dearly loved, but that's business. I always remember that this isn't about people- it's about the goal of changing the way the financial world works.

We have a real chance of replacing banks, contracts, wall street, identity management and currencies with the technology satoshi started. It's up to all of us to finish it regardless of what project we happen to support.

[klee]

In invictus land they can. Li Xiaolai is a man of great integrity and honor. No this was solely Dan's decision and this isn't the forum to discuss it.

Ethereum and some other projects I'm working on are going to completely replace the need for keyhotee and bitshares.  It makes me sad that I can't do it with the company I helped fund, named and dearly loved, but that's business. I always remember that this isn't about people- it's about the goal of changing the way the financial world works.

We have a real chance of replacing banks, contracts, wall street, identity management and currencies with the technology satoshi started. It's up to all of us to finish it regardless of what project we happen to support.

Links except from http://vbuterin.com/ethereum.html ?

[charleshoskinson]

Miami conference on the 24th.

[klee]

Miami conference on the 24th.

Berlin 13-14th? For us poor Europeans..

[PendiCoin88]

I don't have Mastercoin or Next, focus BTC..

[charleshoskinson]

Berlin 13-14th? For us poor Europeans..

Invictus the movement lives on and will be present in the launch coming soon. A lot of time is being invested in clarity, effective marketing, architecture, proper legal structures and other such things. Once that has been set, expect a storm and you'll love the vision and roadmap. I promise that.

[bytemaster]

In invictus land they can. Li Xiaolai is a man of great integrity and honor. No this was solely Dan's decision and this isn't the forum to discuss it.

Ethereum and some other projects I'm working on are going to completely replace the need for keyhotee and bitshares.  It makes me sad that I can't do it with the company I helped fund, named and dearly loved, but that's business. I always remember that this isn't about people- it's about the goal of changing the way the financial world works.

We have a real chance of replacing banks, contracts, wall street, identity management and currencies with the technology satoshi started. It's up to all of us to finish it regardless of what project we happen to support.

It wasn't solely my decision and integrity and honor is something you could learn from Mr. Li.  I am well aware of the lies you have been spreading since you left and would warn everyone that Charles is a salesman that tells everyone what they want to hear and has no compulsion with stretching the truth to absurd lengths or telling outright lies.   Fortunately for Charles, I will abide by the NDA when it comes to discussing what actually happened.  To the extent that he says anything other than that he resigned for personal reasons Charles is violating the NDA or spreading lies.  The reality distortion field is strong with this one.

Beware of this shark, he will be your friend one day and plan your destruction in secret the next.  He treats people as objects to be manipulated and used for his ends. While we were working together I always wondered why so many people disliked him and were against him.  Now I know.

Fortunately we survived the loss and have moved on. 

[Herp]

In invictus land they can. Li Xiaolai is a man of great integrity and honor. No this was solely Dan's decision and this isn't the forum to discuss it.

Ethereum and some other projects I'm working on are going to completely replace the need for keyhotee and bitshares.  It makes me sad that I can't do it with the company I helped fund, named and dearly loved, but that's business. I always remember that this isn't about people- it's about the goal of changing the way the financial world works.

We have a real chance of replacing banks, contracts, wall street, identity management and currencies with the technology satoshi started. It's up to all of us to finish it regardless of what project we happen to support.

It wasn't solely my decision and integrity and honor is something you could learn from Mr. Li.  I am well aware of the lies you have been spreading since you left and would warn everyone that Charles is a salesman that tells everyone what they want to hear and has no compulsion with stretching the truth to absurd lengths or telling outright lies.   Fortunately for Charles, I will abide by the NDA when it comes to discussing what actually happened.  To the extent that he says anything other than that he resigned for personal reasons Charles is violating the NDA or spreading lies.  The reality distortion field is strong with this one.

Beware of this shark, he will be your friend one day and plan your destruction in secret the next.  He treats people as objects to be manipulated and used for his ends. While we were working together I always wondered why so many people disliked him and were against him.  Now I know.

Fortunately we survived the loss and have moved on.  

From what I've seen so far, you are the one people should be aware of. The ex-CEO didn't lower himself to ad hominem attacks against you like the one you've just performed in this post.

As I've stated previously, your pitch to developers seems dishonest as it basically contradicts what you're telling shareholders.

[charleshoskinson]

I never signed an NDA Dan and I haven't lied once here. I've left this issue mostly alone and my integrity is not in question. You're the sole person who divested me and also received 100 percent of my shares. I don't need to bring you down Dan. I just need to finish what I asked the community to help me do in June.

I wish you well and hope for the best.

[bitcool]

Not knowing what happened behind the scene, it's sad to see this, it will hurt both sides. 

Just wish both of you and your projects successful.