[RFC] Potential release of AMD Lyra2z miner (Raw speed: Vega64 9.8 MH/s)

[kerney666]

Long post, please read through if you have an interest in Lyra2z and is an AMD GPU owner, otherwise you can stop here.

Background: Lyra2z is commonly regarded as an "NVidia-only" algo since there are no public miners for available AMD GPUs worth the time. In reality, it's just a bullshit statement. You can pull off an highly optimized Lyra2z kernel that runs circles around the NVidia miners available, but you need to use techniques not available in OpenCL. GCN ASM is the only solution, and you need to be quite skilled working your magic.

My miner, which currently is a pure GCN ASM-replacement that I drop into sgminer, does 4.5-5.5 MH/s on a RX 580, 7-8.5 MH/s on a Vega 56 and 9-10.5 MH/s on a Vega 64, intervals depending on how you aggressively you set your clocks. So yes, a RX 580 now equals more than 1.5 1080ti and a not-too-overclocked Vega 64 can crunch more than 3x1080ti.

I only have tons of Vegas and RX580s of all sorts at my disposal to test with, but the implementation should work for any device >= GCN 1.4. The hashrate is pretty much a linear function of the nr of CUs that the card provides.

My question to the (zcoin and other tiny lyra2z altcoins) communities right now is: in what form do you want this miner released? Some choices are a classic dev fee miner, selling an unlimited amount of kernels for a set price (sp-mod style) or selling a limited amount of kernels to the highest bidders.

As you can figure, my own edge right now mining with my rigs is quite nice. The reason I'm writing this is an upcoming move and I will probably have to shut down my rigs. Personally, if I make this available at all, I'd prefer a public miner. I don't like selling to a few select people/farms. Also, the (supposedly) limited time left for ZCoin before the MTP fork renders an upfront investment obsolete in a not-too-distant future. The issue is that this will not be a 2% dev fee miner. Releasing it to the public is not worth it for me with anything less than a 25% dev fee, it's just simple math given the size of my mining rigs and my current edge. However, I know the shitstorm such a suggestion sparks in some entitled peoples' heads. Of course, the kernel will also be dumped and copied within a week regardless of how much I work on protection, and then my current edge is gone forever, which is also factored into the 25%.

So, before the kneejerk reactions take over completely, let me present a few arguments. Taking the obscurity of Lyra2z into account, I still don't believe there has been any other new miner instance where blood, sweat, tears and engineering ingenuity has improved the best known public miner for e.g. a stock RX 580 by 1800-1900% in one disruptive release and at the same time also completely crushed comparable NVidia GPUs across the board. That and the assumption that my edge will be short is what the 25% is about, not ripping people off. Even WITH 25% dev fee, mining zcoin with a Vega 64@180w theoretically yields 7 MH/s and $2.59/day net profit with this miner and has approx the same hashrate as two 1080tis. At the time of writing, this is > +140% profit/day compared to the current top entry in whattomine.com's standard list for a Vega64, and then you'd have to go to Claymore's Neoscrypt miner that consumes even more power and some complete shitcoin that makes ZCoin look like BTC. Presented with an obvious win/win, if you're still one of those guys that don't see the work and value involved and is pissed for feeling "ripped off" just because you have to adhere to the conditions that I, the rightful owner of the intellectual property, has stated, then trying every trick in the book to circumvent the dev fee, well, congrats, you're the reason these kernels stay hidden or sold exclusively to big farms. I could have presented this with a non-disclosed 50% dev fee, said that a Vega is now 4.5-5 MH/s, and you would all still have been impressed. THAT would have been a rip-off imho. Instead, I'm being fully transparent, which is a common thing to ask when new unknown miners are released.

So, the choice is yours. If I can be convinced enough people will actually honor a 25% dev fee, I might take the time to rewrite stratum code and other things to not violate GPL by stealing from sgminer, the miner codebase I know best. It's a serious investment in time. The easy route for me would be to just to sell the kernel: no rewrite of a serious codebase, no support, no dealing with imbeciles complaining about potential malware, but as stated above, this is not my preferred choice. Or I just continue keeping it private until the ZCoin MTP fork, no big loss for me really. This thread and/or PMs will decide.

A FWIW-style reference: I'm letting my dev workstation with a RX 580 and Vega 64 LC mine at Mintpond for a while now. You can verify the hashrate with the address below and see that it matches the attached pic (not a junior member, no inline pics...).



https://mintpond.com/#zcoin:aPm4DXfXWLf59qvMMnQ7tHBzoYFNKCxFAD

EDIT: added Mintpond link

[1715348996]

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[1715348996]

1715348996

[1715348996]

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[1715348996]

1715348996

[rednoW]

I think you forgot some not very profitable but interesting way - some crowdfunding to release your miner opensourced ))

[xs.over]

I'm voting for "classic dev fee miner linux only"

[FgTeamBR]

I vote for "share your profit with us , poor guys."

[N2DCRYPT]

Fascinating! I'm always interested in new vega miners! Personally, I'd vote for the miner with devfee. I'm sure sp has made a lot of money with his mods, but so have the people who pay him for them... the big boys, with the big farms. Which serves to centralize the coins that sp writes his mods for. Can't blame him, I guess. But I don't have enough gpus to justify paying sp for his mods... I'd never recoup the money I'd pay.

I love my small set of vegas, even though they are quite finicky on the BC drivers. I doubt there are many large vega farms due to their general instability and need for attention, but perhaps there are enough to justify doing something like sp does. I'd guess the majority of Vega owners are like myself, and were able to snatch a few before they were either gone or way out of reasonable price range. You might have more success/profit by doing this the devfee miner way, I'm not sure. I'm sure some will balk at such a high devfee percent, but profit is profit. It will be unpredictable with the monero fork occurring.

I'm surprised you didn't release this as devfee miner a couple months ago... it was obvious that ASICs were taking over Cryptonight, and Vega profitability has fallen so far from the early days. You could likely have migrated a large portion of Vegas over to your miner... if you chose the right devfee percentage. I'd think that % adoption (Claymore) would be more important than % devfee, but what do I know. You must have hundreds of cards for your farm edge to be > than the perks of being a miner developer!

[kerney666]

Well, I think it's fair to say that this was my own personal solution to the Cryptonight profit decline. I did a full overview over all coins and algos, looking for the best situation where GCN ASM can do things OpenCL can not and that could contribute greatly. Lyra2z was the perfect target really - semi-obscure, needs just a little mem for scratchpad but not too much, owned by NVidia miners for so long that it became a cemented truth that "AMD can't do this algo".

But, you're probably right arguing that I should have released this earlier, but the feeling of having a huge edge and solid yield on my Vegas has been quite nice as well. The other part of the story is where I think I'd like to make a point about how the obsession with GPL in the crypto world backfires.

If there had been a solid implementation of the stratum protocol with pool failover/round-robin/etc, some standardized miner API, GPU monitoring and controls which had a permissive open source license, you would see more of these hidden kernels trickling down into the community. I argue that if there was an off-the-shelf github project that you COULD modify slightly for your needs (kernel protection etc), then pop your kernel into and release as closed source with an agreed-upon standard 1% dev fee or something, this and many other similar implementations had been out there a long time ago. You would have seen more smalltime kernel developers choosing to release their work instead of opting not to. Many support questions on these miners would also be related to the open sourced code and much easier to handle. Bug fixes would be valid for all derived miners.

But, since there isn't one, you have a few options. You can either blatantly don't give a shit at all and release some hacked up sgminer/mkminer/whatever anyway. This happens all the time and for obvious reasons you won't win the popularity contest. Or, you can develop it yourself from scratch, which probably takes much more time than working on the kernel itself. Unless you're a wolf/claymore type and plan to work on 57 different algos, the upside is very slim. This has def been stopping me. The third route which also is much easier to handle, is to just pack up the open source miner that you've used to run the kernel yourself and ship it off to a (semi-)trusted partner with a rev share/dev fee, more commonly known as farms. The kernel can in a valid manner be argued to be input and no modification of the open sourced code itself. I'd guess that the third route is chosen for good reasons in the majority of these cases.

[LTCMAXMYR]

you are too late, someone mine with AMD  GPU farm for half a year

[N2DCRYPT]

Well, I think it's fair to say that this was my own personal solution to the Cryptonight profit decline. I did a full overview over all coins and algos, looking for the best situation where GCN ASM can do things OpenCL can not and that could contribute greatly. Lyra2z was the perfect target really - semi-obscure, needs just a little mem for scratchpad but not too much, owned by NVidia miners for so long that it became a cemented truth that "AMD can't do this algo".

But, you're probably right arguing that I should have released this earlier, but the feeling of having a huge edge and solid yield on my Vegas has been quite nice as well. The other part of the story is where I think I'd like to make a point about how the obsession with GPL in the crypto world backfires.

If there had been a solid implementation of the stratum protocol with pool failover/round-robin/etc, some standardized miner API, GPU monitoring and controls which had a permissive open source license, you would see more of these hidden kernels trickling down into the community. I argue that if there was an off-the-shelf github project that you COULD modify slightly for your needs (kernel protection etc), then pop your kernel into and release as closed source with an agreed-upon standard 1% dev fee or something, this and many other similar implementations had been out there a long time ago. You would have seen more smalltime kernel developers choosing to release their work instead of opting not to. Many support questions on these miners would also be related to the open sourced code and much easier to handle. Bug fixes would be valid for all derived miners.

But, since there isn't one, you have a few options. You can either blatantly don't give a shit at all and release some hacked up sgminer/mkminer/whatever anyway. This happens all the time and for obvious reasons you won't win the popularity contest. Or, you can develop it yourself from scratch, which probably takes much more time than working on the kernel itself. Unless you're a wolf/claymore type and plan to work on 57 different algos, the upside is very slim. This has def been stopping me. The third route which also is much easier to handle, is to just pack up the open source miner that you've used to run the kernel yourself and ship it off to a (semi-)trusted partner with a rev share/dev fee, more commonly known as farms. The kernel can in a valid manner be argued to be input and no modification of the open sourced code itself. I'd guess that the third route is chosen for good reasons in the majority of these cases.

Well, you put in the work and the research, and it's your intellectual property and you deserve the profit, not that my opinion matters. I was simply commenting on how you could best optimize being rewarded for your work. We can all talk about doing things for the "good of the community" or challenging ASICs or "decentralization" etc. etc. but most of us are here for profit. Hell, I'm here for profit hoping you release it as a devfee miner 

You'll always have the greedy ones who find ways around devfees or steal kernels and build their own miners, but I believe that most miners are honest and are happy to pay good developers a fee to incentivize further development. Otherwise we'd have no miners period or they'd all be internal to large farms. Most, like myself, are afraid of viruses/trojans and anything that comes with a "free" tag, because nothing is truly free.

You also underestimate people's laziness... in the crypto world, time is money, and most would be willing to get machines up and running quickly as opposed to determining how to determine workarounds on fees. For the small people, anyways, like me. I'm not going to try and figure out glph3k's CAST XMR miner and try and sneakily find a way around the fee for a few cents a day. He did a great job, and deserves his 1.5% no question about it. If he upped it I'd still use his miner and pay the higher percentage.

As far as your concern about open source licenses, it makes a lot of sense, and I get it. It's unfortunate that it holds back miner development/release, as in this case, but understandable. As far as a popularity contest goes, you can't win that either way. People will bitch about devfee, or they'll bitch about open source stealing, or they'll bitch about rich getting richer if you do sp-mod style. You do what's best for you, can't make everyone happy.

I've used wolf's open source cryptonight miner, and even though you can compile it with no devfee, I've never done so. Devs deserve their fee, more so than pool operators as far as I'm concerned. If you do something like wolf, no GPL complaints or whatever, but you'd be trusting in people to be honest and pay whatever fee they considerable reasonable, and I don't expect you to be that generous with your work 

The sad part here is that by keeping it internal you've lost the leverage factor. You're limited by your own internal number of 580s, Vegas, electricity, etc. You're hard capped by some sort of ceiling.

It's the leverage of the hundreds of other miners which makes being a developer interesting... it's the small % x % adoption x number of cards in the wild that can lead to some massive profit numbers. I can only imagine Claymore's ETH wallets  and he doesn't have to lift a finger or do the hassle that comes with being a miner. That's true passive income.

[sabercrypto]

fee with windows version

[notsure85]

very impressive improvement.
I would accept the fee for this massive increase in hashrate.
Hoping its compatible with old r9 290x soldiers?

... really blows away 1080ti performance.

[shubham412302]

$2.5/rx580 with that hash rate. That's insane. My 1080ti does 3.37mh/s.

[Bare]

Long post, please read through if you have an interest in Lyra2z and is an AMD GPU owner, otherwise you can stop here.

Background: Lyra2z is commonly regarded as an "NVidia-only" algo since there are no public miners for available AMD GPUs worth the time. In reality, it's just a bullshit statement. You can pull off an highly optimized Lyra2z kernel that runs circles around the NVidia miners available, but you need to use techniques not available in OpenCL. GCN ASM is the only solution, and you need to be quite skilled working your magic.

My miner, which currently is a pure GCN ASM-replacement that I drop into sgminer, does 4.5-5.5 MH/s on a RX 580, 7-8.5 MH/s on a Vega 56 and 9-10.5 MH/s on a Vega 64, intervals depending on how you aggressively you set your clocks. So yes, a RX 580 now equals more than 1.5 1080ti and a not-too-overclocked Vega 64 can crunch more than 3x1080ti.

I only have tons of Vegas and RX580s of all sorts at my disposal to test with, but the implementation should work for any device >= GCN 1.4. The hashrate is pretty much a linear function of the nr of CUs that the card provides.

My question to the (zcoin and other tiny lyra2z altcoins) communities right now is: in what form do you want this miner released? Some choices are a classic dev fee miner, selling an unlimited amount of kernels for a set price (sp-mod style) or selling a limited amount of kernels to the highest bidders.

As you can figure, my own edge right now mining with my rigs is quite nice. The reason I'm writing this is an upcoming move and I will probably have to shut down my rigs. Personally, if I make this available at all, I'd prefer a public miner. I don't like selling to a few select people/farms. Also, the (supposedly) limited time left for ZCoin before the MTP fork renders an upfront investment obsolete in a not-too-distant future. The issue is that this will not be a 2% dev fee miner. Releasing it to the public is not worth it for me with anything less than a 25% dev fee, it's just simple math given the size of my mining rigs and my current edge. However, I know the shitstorm such a suggestion sparks in some entitled peoples' heads. Of course, the kernel will also be dumped and copied within a week regardless of how much I work on protection, and then my current edge is gone forever, which is also factored into the 25%.

So, before the kneejerk reactions take over completely, let me present a few arguments. Taking the obscurity of Lyra2z into account, I still don't believe there has been any other new miner instance where blood, sweat, tears and engineering ingenuity has improved the best known public miner for e.g. a stock RX 580 by 1800-1900% in one disruptive release and at the same time also completely crushed comparable NVidia GPUs across the board. That and the assumption that my edge will be short is what the 25% is about, not ripping people off. Even WITH 25% dev fee, mining zcoin with a Vega 64@180w theoretically yields 7 MH/s and $2.59/day net profit with this miner and has approx the same hashrate as two 1080tis. At the time of writing, this is > +140% profit/day compared to the current top entry in whattomine.com's standard list for a Vega64, and then you'd have to go to Claymore's Neoscrypt miner that consumes even more power and some complete shitcoin that makes ZCoin look like BTC. Presented with an obvious win/win, if you're still one of those guys that don't see the work and value involved and is pissed for feeling "ripped off" just because you have to adhere to the conditions that I, the rightful owner of the intellectual property, has stated, then trying every trick in the book to circumvent the dev fee, well, congrats, you're the reason these kernels stay hidden or sold exclusively to big farms. I could have presented this with a non-disclosed 50% dev fee, said that a Vega is now 4.5-5 MH/s, and you would all still have been impressed. THAT would have been a rip-off imho. Instead, I'm being fully transparent, which is a common thing to ask when new unknown miners are released.

So, the choice is yours. If I can be convinced enough people will actually honor a 25% dev fee, I might take the time to rewrite stratum code and other things to not violate GPL by stealing from sgminer, the miner codebase I know best. It's a serious investment in time. The easy route for me would be to just to sell the kernel: no rewrite of a serious codebase, no support, no dealing with imbeciles complaining about potential malware, but as stated above, this is not my preferred choice. Or I just continue keeping it private until the ZCoin MTP fork, no big loss for me really. This thread and/or PMs will decide.

A FWIW-style reference: I'm letting my dev workstation with a RX 580 and Vega 64 LC mine at Mintpond for a while now. You can verify the hashrate with the address below and see that it matches the attached pic (not a junior member, no inline pics...).



https://mintpond.com/#zcoin:aPm4DXfXWLf59qvMMnQ7tHBzoYFNKCxFAD

EDIT: added Mintpond link

Well argumented post, I'd vote for 25% dev fee miner, but we would like to see how would you pull that off, e.g. every hour miner mines 15mins for you or what?

Changed my mind, 2% dev fee max. or nothing...

[crocozino]

well, that would literally give a life to all amd cards again!
especially vegas, cause it will be 3 times faster then gtx1080ti
wow.. you should release the miner with 2-3% dev fee  and I'm sure a lot of people will use it!

[EdgeOfSanity]

paid for miner sp style. I would consider building amd rigs again for this assuming the price is right.

I would never support a miner with a 25% dev fee. I don't care how fast it is.

[4ward]

How much you earn is your business.
I care about how much I earn.

If giving you 25% fee earns me more money that now - I'll gladly pay

And for those who aren't willing to pay - Silly idealism will not earn more money

[ol92]

I vote for a fee. Fair because, the higher you use the miner, the higher your pay...

For the fee amount: you may adopt a progressive approach: 25% at the begining (first week: this level is too high to last more than a week), then a regular decrease toward 2% a few months later...

Or choose a more reasonable fee: 10%

[EdgeOfSanity]

The problem with releasing a miner with such a huge advantage into the public with a very high fee is that someone will find a way to remove it. It'll happen quickly too.

This miner has such a ridiculous advantage right now that the smart thing to do would be releasing a detuned version to the public with a 2-3% fee. Save a faster version for people willing to pay for it.

If this thing does go public i will enjoy seeing all the botnets mining xzc get fucked by the hashrate increase.

[Iamtutut]

Dev fee is ok to me, may be it will lower with more miners, eg: 1000 rigs = 25% dev fee. >5000 rigs = 20% devfee, >10K rigs = 15% fee...

[xberg]

2% dev fee.

[BCCrypto68]

My $.02 is I'd rather see a lower dev fee, with maybe an upfront buy in. But if those numbers work out to be true, this is something I'm sure many AMD GPU miners would be very interested it.

[N2DCRYPT]

2% dev fee.

Andddd you're why we can't have nice things 

[ginterh]

Just make it happen, don't really care about the fee.

[xberg]

2% dev fee.

Andddd you're why we can't have nice things 

No seriously: 2% is right.
Currently all AMD miners are seeking a coin to mine to generate a profit. At 2% you will have thousands of rigs move to your algo. Also I doubt there will be any effort to create a spin off of your miner without the dev fee if you're at 2%.
At 25% indeed your code will be hacked to remove that fee.
And finally you are blocking most development efforts of other developers at 2%.

[xs.over]

Zcoin mining almost never was highly profitable. Now zcoin mining profits in deep ass even on gtx 1070ti.
I'm pretty sure that even after release of this optimised miner, just within few days-maybe week, mining profit will be exactly the same as on Ether. So in this case the winner will be only miner software developer, due to fees.
Miners will not see any huge mining profits. Also nvidia miners will be in very poor position

[heathermint]

25%  r y crazy ?)))
Electricity, devices...
1-2% dfee maybe

[rikuu]

Zcoin mining almost never was highly profitable. Now zcoin mining profits in deep ass even on gtx 1070ti.
I'm pretty sure that even after release of this optimised miner, just within few days-maybe week, mining profit will be exactly the same as on Ether. So in this case the winner will be only miner software developer, due to fees.
Miners will not see any huge mining profits. Also nvidia miners will be in very poor position

I agree.

[bobben2]

A 1.5-2% devfee miner will go down well I think.   Everybody wins (some).
It gives the author income and miners a wider choice.

[denhod]

When release?

[denhod]

 I vote for "classic dev fee miner win64" It'll be cool!

[Larvitar]

2% fee is reasonable. While it could be the most profitable choice to AMD videocards, 2% of many many many miners will be better than 25% of a few miners.

[glinko]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

[glinko]

So, just relise your miner with 2% fee.
in other case someone else do this)

[namelessaaa]

I think 3% a little more than claymore dual mode is a good choice.

Lots of AMD rig may rush to this miner, just like my 8*570.
However, my poor 8*1070Ti may lost another good profit coin...

so sad.

[Spill]

Zcoin mining almost never was highly profitable. Now zcoin mining profits in deep ass even on gtx 1070ti.

Gratz on your miner but at 25% I would have no interest in running, no matter how good your miner is with that high fees. and on a low profitability coin.

[soothaa]

Free with Devfee

[yrk1957]

As someone above said at 25% you are giving more incentive for people to hack around it. Don’t be surprised to see big farms pay to get it cracked.

And also if it’s that’s profitable and doable, there will be others who eventually develop their own, though you will have first mover advantage for some time.

So a reasonable fee like 3-5% in the beginning, while you have no competition, would keep things level.

Thanks! Looking forward to this.

[todxx]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

I was really hoping to get at least a beta build ready before setting this forum loose on it.
Also to get some feedback about any bugs, like the one you mention.
The github repo has an issue tracker that would be a great place to report problems like not finding devices.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I find it strange that this was posted here half a day after I posted my alpha release.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

[yrk1957]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

I was really hoping to get at least a beta build ready before setting this forum loose on it.
Also to get some feedback about any bugs, like the one you mention.
The github repo has an issue tracker that would be a great place to report problems like not finding devices.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I find it strange that this was posted here half a day after I posted my alpha release.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

Lol! This is like Bitmain rushing their Cryptonight ASIC to the market after Baikal announced theirs (or was it other way around).


Edit: Hey can you start your own thread for feedback? Would love to test it.

[todxx]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

I was really hoping to get at least a beta build ready before setting this forum loose on it.
Also to get some feedback about any bugs, like the one you mention.
The github repo has an issue tracker that would be a great place to report problems like not finding devices.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I find it strange that this was posted here half a day after I posted my alpha release.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

Lol! This is like Bitmain rushing their Cryptonight ASIC to the market after Baikal announced theirs (or was it other way around).


Edit: Hey can you start your own thread for feedback? Would love to test it.

Looks like the cat's out of the bag, so I guess I should.  I'll try to get a post up tonight.  I'm trying to get my taxes done right now .
Until then, you can find it at the link that was posted.  Feel free to post issues in the github repo for bugs, requests, etc.

[glinko]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

I was really hoping to get at least a beta build ready before setting this forum loose on it.
Also to get some feedback about any bugs, like the one you mention.
The github repo has an issue tracker that would be a great place to report problems like not finding devices.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I find it strange that this was posted here half a day after I posted my alpha release.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

Just a coincidence))
To make a topic - better choice, i think. You can get more feedback.

[todxx]

someone also developing amd lyra2z miner https://github.com/todxx/tdxminer/releases
for me it cant see more then 1 card and stack at dev fee mine.

I was really hoping to get at least a beta build ready before setting this forum loose on it.
Also to get some feedback about any bugs, like the one you mention.
The github repo has an issue tracker that would be a great place to report problems like not finding devices.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I find it strange that this was posted here half a day after I posted my alpha release.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

Just a coincidence))
To make a topic - better choice, i think. You can get more feedback.

Yep, definitely a coincidence.  I'll make sure future releases are less coincidence prone.
And yes, a topic is what I should have said.  I'm new to posting here, as I'm sure you guys have noticed

Edit: topic is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3299496.0

[dragonmike]

I'd pay a 25% dev fee for this miner. At current levels it'd still yield more than twice what ETH brings in on my rigs of 570's.

[BlackPrapor]

Difficulty will skyrocket within hours, and eliminate any benefits for miners. 1-2% devfee is a sane suggestion.

[skrgahr]

any news? will this miner be released? i'm very interested in linux version.

[ninjam]

Probably sold to highest bidder.

[davewolf678]

any update or a download link

[FloppyPurpleGherkin]

25% devfee? Jog on.

[FablomsFDP]

Long post, please read through if you have an interest in Lyra2z and is an AMD GPU owner, otherwise you can stop here.

Background: Lyra2z is commonly regarded as an "NVidia-only" algo since there are no public miners for available AMD GPUs worth the time. In reality, it's just a bullshit statement. You can pull off an highly optimized Lyra2z kernel that runs circles around the NVidia miners available, but you need to use techniques not available in OpenCL. GCN ASM is the only solution, and you need to be quite skilled working your magic.

My miner, which currently is a pure GCN ASM-replacement that I drop into sgminer, does 4.5-5.5 MH/s on a RX 580, 7-8.5 MH/s on a Vega 56 and 9-10.5 MH/s on a Vega 64, intervals depending on how you aggressively you set your clocks. So yes, a RX 580 now equals more than 1.5 1080ti and a not-too-overclocked Vega 64 can crunch more than 3x1080ti.

I only have tons of Vegas and RX580s of all sorts at my disposal to test with, but the implementation should work for any device >= GCN 1.4. The hashrate is pretty much a linear function of the nr of CUs that the card provides.

My question to the (zcoin and other tiny lyra2z altcoins) communities right now is: in what form do you want this miner released? Some choices are a classic dev fee miner, selling an unlimited amount of kernels for a set price (sp-mod style) or selling a limited amount of kernels to the highest bidders.

As you can figure, my own edge right now mining with my rigs is quite nice. The reason I'm writing this is an upcoming move and I will probably have to shut down my rigs. Personally, if I make this available at all, I'd prefer a public miner. I don't like selling to a few select people/farms. Also, the (supposedly) limited time left for ZCoin before the MTP fork renders an upfront investment obsolete in a not-too-distant future. The issue is that this will not be a 2% dev fee miner. Releasing it to the public is not worth it for me with anything less than a 25% dev fee, it's just simple math given the size of my mining rigs and my current edge. However, I know the shitstorm such a suggestion sparks in some entitled peoples' heads. Of course, the kernel will also be dumped and copied within a week regardless of how much I work on protection, and then my current edge is gone forever, which is also factored into the 25%.

So, before the kneejerk reactions take over completely, let me present a few arguments. Taking the obscurity of Lyra2z into account, I still don't believe there has been any other new miner instance where blood, sweat, tears and engineering ingenuity has improved the best known public miner for e.g. a stock RX 580 by 1800-1900% in one disruptive release and at the same time also completely crushed comparable NVidia GPUs across the board. That and the assumption that my edge will be short is what the 25% is about, not ripping people off. Even WITH 25% dev fee, mining zcoin with a Vega 64@180w theoretically yields 7 MH/s and $2.59/day net profit with this miner and has approx the same hashrate as two 1080tis. At the time of writing, this is > +140% profit/day compared to the current top entry in whattomine.com's standard list for a Vega64, and then you'd have to go to Claymore's Neoscrypt miner that consumes even more power and some complete shitcoin that makes ZCoin look like BTC. Presented with an obvious win/win, if you're still one of those guys that don't see the work and value involved and is pissed for feeling "ripped off" just because you have to adhere to the conditions that I, the rightful owner of the intellectual property, has stated, then trying every trick in the book to circumvent the dev fee, well, congrats, you're the reason these kernels stay hidden or sold exclusively to big farms. I could have presented this with a non-disclosed 50% dev fee, said that a Vega is now 4.5-5 MH/s, and you would all still have been impressed. THAT would have been a rip-off imho. Instead, I'm being fully transparent, which is a common thing to ask when new unknown miners are released.

So, the choice is yours. If I can be convinced enough people will actually honor a 25% dev fee, I might take the time to rewrite stratum code and other things to not violate GPL by stealing from sgminer, the miner codebase I know best. It's a serious investment in time. The easy route for me would be to just to sell the kernel: no rewrite of a serious codebase, no support, no dealing with imbeciles complaining about potential malware, but as stated above, this is not my preferred choice. Or I just continue keeping it private until the ZCoin MTP fork, no big loss for me really. This thread and/or PMs will decide.

A FWIW-style reference: I'm letting my dev workstation with a RX 580 and Vega 64 LC mine at Mintpond for a while now. You can verify the hashrate with the address below and see that it matches the attached pic (not a junior member, no inline pics...).

https://i.imgur.com/gDSNJLZ.png

https://mintpond.com/#zcoin:aPm4DXfXWLf59qvMMnQ7tHBzoYFNKCxFAD

EDIT: added Mintpond link

Good afternoon! Very interested in your message, tell me please, do you sell your miner or is there another way to get it?

[Aleh777]

So will this paid miner be there?
I understand that the Creator wants 25% well, I agree when it will be possible to download and use it?

[FablomsFDP]

So will this paid miner be there?
I understand that the Creator wants 25% well, I agree when it will be possible to download and use it?

Apparently never ...

[Aleh777]

So will this paid miner be there?
I understand that the Creator wants 25% well, I agree when it will be possible to download and use it?

Apparently never ...

So let's wait for other creators), this apparently does not want to earn money)

While x17 verge is also interesting in mining on AMD 580) (8.8 MHs-9.1 Mhs for one RX580 - I-18-20) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdLFw5KwxNA

[TheRealSTU]

I always go by the rules of CAPITALISM - cos it works.
You do not need to justify dev fees, competition will do that.

Its simple really, if your hashrate (minus devfee) is not on par or better with other present or future competition - don't expect customers.
Even if it is on par - clients will not switch to setup and lose mining downtime + lose a familiar/accustomed miner + lose a stable setup + lose community/support....

Make the cheese big enough and they will come.


Sgminer is already on a lyra2z prerelease but atm poor hashrates for me, and tdxminer (6+MH/s) hopefully will come out with a windows release - so it will be wise to establish a good user base soon.

[tetesh]

I want to purchase a miner that gives more than 5mh with rx580.
who has it please write to me at pm with the price

[Sgsg666]

Any news on miner?

[Iamtutut]

I don't think there will ever be a release.

[grendel25]

Lyra2z should be considered dead to GPU miners and coin devs need to wake up to that fact.  FPGA is owning Lyra2z and that will only get worse as time goes on.

Time to focus on true ASIC/FPGA resistance if new coin and existing coin projects want to be taken seriously as a proof of work algorithm.

[squallw]

Lyra2z should be considered dead to GPU miners and coin devs need to wake up to that fact.  FPGA is owning Lyra2z and that will only get worse as time goes on.

Time to focus on true ASIC/FPGA resistance if new coin and existing coin projects want to be taken seriously as a proof of work algorithm.

Where is FPGA? As far i know, some people is testing some FPGA and i remeber that i saw a FPGA for $3500 and it says 25mh/s on lyra2z, i think i can get more hash power with $3500 in a rig with amd cards.
Maybe if FPGA turns solid, with good support, devs, miners and easy to buy and a good price like $1000 instead $3500 i can consider 'dead for GPU miners'.

[cod3gen]

Lyra2z should be considered dead to GPU miners and coin devs need to wake up to that fact.  FPGA is owning Lyra2z and that will only get worse as time goes on.

Time to focus on true ASIC/FPGA resistance if new coin and existing coin projects want to be taken seriously as a proof of work algorithm.

Where is FPGA? As far i know, some people is testing some FPGA and i remeber that i saw a FPGA for $3500 and it says 25mh/s on lyra2z, i think i can get more hash power with $3500 in a rig with amd cards.
Maybe if FPGA turns solid, with good support, devs, miners and easy to buy and a good price like $1000 instead $3500 i can consider 'dead for GPU miners'.

GPU`s do consume alot more power than those FPGA`s, and there are already thousands of FPGA`s sold/preordered. And Lyra2z is the first algo they will "destroy".. :-S

[schriss]

dev fee + windows release.

[squallw]

Lyra2z should be considered dead to GPU miners and coin devs need to wake up to that fact.  FPGA is owning Lyra2z and that will only get worse as time goes on.

Time to focus on true ASIC/FPGA resistance if new coin and existing coin projects want to be taken seriously as a proof of work algorithm.

Where is FPGA? As far i know, some people is testing some FPGA and i remeber that i saw a FPGA for $3500 and it says 25mh/s on lyra2z, i think i can get more hash power with $3500 in a rig with amd cards.
Maybe if FPGA turns solid, with good support, devs, miners and easy to buy and a good price like $1000 instead $3500 i can consider 'dead for GPU miners'.

GPU`s do consume alot more power than those FPGA`s, and there are already thousands of FPGA`s sold/preordered. And Lyra2z is the first algo they will "destroy".. :-S

Maybe you are right, but i'm waiting for proof and evidence.
Little few dev is working on FPGA, so i'm not sure when and if this is will be real. I didn't see any proof in video/pools that FPGA can hash that informed values.

[Sonic-X]

Any news on miner? will ever a release?

[omegaoracle]

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

[WinstonBlue]

just put some sort of devfee, like others

[Ladydoge]

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

Sgminer's lyra2z kernel is unoptimized.

[harko90]

I got very low hashrate    2.7 mhs with all 6 rx 580

Can someone please help me?

[serhanni]

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

There is also tdxminer but I have not tried yet, have you?

[preda]

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

There is also tdxminer but I have not tried yet, have you?

tdxminer rx 480 3.4mh each card!

[Earl_Vadim]

dev fee 25% ?
Leave your miner yourself, cad.
we will stay with tdxminer...

[omegaoracle]

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

Sgminer's lyra2z kernel is unoptimized.

Had to try but yeah the results speaks for itself

Bump. any news on any miner at all for AMD Vega cards on Win10?
Tried Sgminer but only got 1Mh/s, but then again I don't know how to configure in the bat file

There is also tdxminer but I have not tried yet, have you?

I was planning to try this on Sunday. Literally have not much experience with linux but the plan was;
1. Install ubuntu
2. Install ROCm 1.8
3. Install tdxminer

And hopefully it will recognize the 8 vega 64s for me to point it to a Lyra2z pool.
Been searching for a written post guide or youtube vid but haven't found one, any resources that you can point me to?
 

[keksik]

is there windowas version of lyra2z miner for amd cards then?

also if someone can writte a guide for tdx miner maybe it will also work...ill use usb sticker maybe.

[CharlieCox]

I was planning to try this on Sunday. Literally have not much experience with linux but the plan was;
1. Install ubuntu
2. Install ROCm 1.8
3. Install tdxminer

And hopefully it will recognize the 8 vega 64s for me to point it to a Lyra2z pool.

I tried it and it works with 1 RX Vega card. With two or more cards, the machine refuses to boot and throws PCIe errors. If someone is able to run more than one RX Vega, please share your findings.

[serhanni]

I was planning to try this on Sunday. Literally have not much experience with linux but the plan was;
1. Install ubuntu
2. Install ROCm 1.8
3. Install tdxminer

And hopefully it will recognize the 8 vega 64s for me to point it to a Lyra2z pool.

I tried it and it works with 1 RX Vega card. With two or more cards, the machine refuses to boot and throws PCIe errors. If someone is able to run more than one RX Vega, please share your findings.

Not remember correctly but I think I read something about pcie 1x - 16x thing on hiveos on forum. As I remember you need to try using on mobo's pci slots not by risers. I might be completly wrong

[CharlieCox]

I managed to run more than 1 card after I have installed the OS on another motherboard

[soothaa]

You should try to talk with The Doctor Tekcomm. He would show how it is spending 140h of coding just for pure pleasure sharing his work with others for free.
Greed is the root of all evil...

So this guy should just give away his hard earned time, knowledge and advantage? Sheesh.

[Bulitt]

If there is a lower dev fee more people would be willing to pay it. I know there are versions of the miners I use now with the dev fee removed, but I still use the original and mine for the devs.

[awgjj]

Long post, please read through if you have an interest in Lyra2z and is an AMD GPU owner, otherwise you can stop here.

Background: Lyra2z is commonly regarded as an "NVidia-only" algo since there are no public miners for available AMD GPUs worth the time. In reality, it's just a bullshit statement. You can pull off an highly optimized Lyra2z kernel that runs circles around the NVidia miners available, but you need to use techniques not available in OpenCL. GCN ASM is the only solution, and you need to be quite skilled working your magic.

My miner, which currently is a pure GCN ASM-replacement that I drop into sgminer, does 4.5-5.5 MH/s on a RX 580, 7-8.5 MH/s on a Vega 56 and 9-10.5 MH/s on a Vega 64, intervals depending on how you aggressively you set your clocks. So yes, a RX 580 now equals more than 1.5 1080ti and a not-too-overclocked Vega 64 can crunch more than 3x1080ti.

I only have tons of Vegas and RX580s of all sorts at my disposal to test with, but the implementation should work for any device >= GCN 1.4. The hashrate is pretty much a linear function of the nr of CUs that the card provides.

My question to the (zcoin and other tiny lyra2z altcoins) communities right now is: in what form do you want this miner released? Some choices are a classic dev fee miner, selling an unlimited amount of kernels for a set price (sp-mod style) or selling a limited amount of kernels to the highest bidders.

As you can figure, my own edge right now mining with my rigs is quite nice. The reason I'm writing this is an upcoming move and I will probably have to shut down my rigs. Personally, if I make this available at all, I'd prefer a public miner. I don't like selling to a few select people/farms. Also, the (supposedly) limited time left for ZCoin before the MTP fork renders an upfront investment obsolete in a not-too-distant future. The issue is that this will not be a 2% dev fee miner. Releasing it to the public is not worth it for me with anything less than a 25% dev fee, it's just simple math given the size of my mining rigs and my current edge. However, I know the shitstorm such a suggestion sparks in some entitled peoples' heads. Of course, the kernel will also be dumped and copied within a week regardless of how much I work on protection, and then my current edge is gone forever, which is also factored into the 25%.

So, before the kneejerk reactions take over completely, let me present a few arguments. Taking the obscurity of Lyra2z into account, I still don't believe there has been any other new miner instance where blood, sweat, tears and engineering ingenuity has improved the best known public miner for e.g. a stock RX 580 by 1800-1900% in one disruptive release and at the same time also completely crushed comparable NVidia GPUs across the board. That and the assumption that my edge will be short is what the 25% is about, not ripping people off. Even WITH 25% dev fee, mining zcoin with a Vega 64@180w theoretically yields 7 MH/s and $2.59/day net profit with this miner and has approx the same hashrate as two 1080tis. At the time of writing, this is > +140% profit/day compared to the current top entry in whattomine.com's standard list for a Vega64, and then you'd have to go to Claymore's Neoscrypt miner that consumes even more power and some complete shitcoin that makes ZCoin look like BTC. Presented with an obvious win/win, if you're still one of those guys that don't see the work and value involved and is pissed for feeling "ripped off" just because you have to adhere to the conditions that I, the rightful owner of the intellectual property, has stated, then trying every trick in the book to circumvent the dev fee, well, congrats, you're the reason these kernels stay hidden or sold exclusively to big farms. I could have presented this with a non-disclosed 50% dev fee, said that a Vega is now 4.5-5 MH/s, and you would all still have been impressed. THAT would have been a rip-off imho. Instead, I'm being fully transparent, which is a common thing to ask when new unknown miners are released.

So, the choice is yours. If I can be convinced enough people will actually honor a 25% dev fee, I might take the time to rewrite stratum code and other things to not violate GPL by stealing from sgminer, the miner codebase I know best. It's a serious investment in time. The easy route for me would be to just to sell the kernel: no rewrite of a serious codebase, no support, no dealing with imbeciles complaining about potential malware, but as stated above, this is not my preferred choice. Or I just continue keeping it private until the ZCoin MTP fork, no big loss for me really. This thread and/or PMs will decide.

A FWIW-style reference: I'm letting my dev workstation with a RX 580 and Vega 64 LC mine at Mintpond for a while now. You can verify the hashrate with the address below and see that it matches the attached pic (not a junior member, no inline pics...).

https://i.imgur.com/gDSNJLZ.png

https://mintpond.com/#zcoin:aPm4DXfXWLf59qvMMnQ7tHBzoYFNKCxFAD

EDIT: added Mintpond link

I am very interesting to your offer, could you please contact me to my email jiangjiang80s@gmail.com?
Thank you.

[CharlieCox]

And I bet there would be thousands willing to buy his product just to not to deal with Linux.

Sooner or later, someone will figure it out and make a miner for Windows. There are great devs out there. However, just like in real mining there is a limited resource (coins) and the more early you are in the game, the more coins you can collect.

If you wish to be always on the edge, you have to mine specific coins before others. At the moment, Linux is the way to go for AMD + Lira2z. I've lost 3 days setting it up from scratch but it works great and I have no regrets  

[whhynothro]

why not just milk the profit while you have a faster miner.  Until other miners come out.  Then just put a dev fee on it and make it public.  Or make a slightly slower miner for public and sell of your full speed miner to the highest bidder.

seems like that what everyone else is doing. 

wouldn't be surprised If there are already a ton of private miners being sold with higher speeds then yours to those with deep pockets.
 

[eTherertradderr]

There are crowdfunding as well that can help you in a lot of ways.

[YoutubeChannel007]

I have voted for the classic dev and it is something really good.

[boatswaincreditE]

The new vega miners always interests me and it is just exciting to know them.

[cuurtissss]

Share your profit with us are good and I vote for those poor guys.

[maxime506]

I saw you started the thread back in April

If you released the miner then, you could have earned quite a lot already. Amirite?

[kkrectorden]

the small set of vegas are good and you can always play around with them.

[dj2lokza]

Any news about this miner or possibilty to release ?

@ kerney, please check your DM's

[arierep60]

Any news guys?
Cmon realease this miner with 2 or 3% fee and everybody will use it