Re: The Free State Project (split)

[gene]

I see that the teenaged suburbia-dwellers are out in full force.

These sad people are deluded into thinking that disarming themselves against large companies (concentrated power and wealth) will make them free. It should come as no surprise that such propaganda comes primarily from corporations themselves. Luckily, most people understand that democracy is probably the only way that we (humans) can coexist in relative freedom and decency.

[1714167055]

1714167055

[1714167055]

1714167055

[Anonymous]

I see that the teenaged suburbia-dwellers are out in full force.

These sad people are deluded into thinking that disarming themselves against large companies (concentrated power and wealth) will make them free. It should come as no surprise that such propaganda comes primarily from corporations themselves. Luckily, most people understand that democracy is probably the only way that we (humans) can coexist in relative freedom and decency.

You honestly believe material wealth alone gives entities oppressive power?

Unfortunately, more or less than 49% of individuals get fucked over in a democracy.

[kiba]

A free society do not exist by coercion and violence.

A free society exists by peaceful cooperation and consent.

That is the doctrine of Voluntarism.

So let disperses with the idea of democracy and deal with each other one on one using the Golden rule principle.

[gene]

I see that the teenaged suburbia-dwellers are out in full force.

These sad people are deluded into thinking that disarming themselves against large companies (concentrated power and wealth) will make them free. It should come as no surprise that such propaganda comes primarily from corporations themselves. Luckily, most people understand that democracy is probably the only way that we (humans) can coexist in relative freedom and decency.

You honestly believe material wealth alone gives entities oppressive power?

I think it goes a very long way.

Unfortunately, more or less than 49% of individuals get fucked over in a democracy.

I'm thinking more like 2% -- the percentage of people that really own my country, for instance. Of course, it we're talking about human rights and basic standards of human decency, then even 2% is too much. The good news is that most Americans don't like messing with other people for no reason. This suggests that democracy is not the poison that some insist.

Has anybody noticed how every internet argument takes the form:
1) put down opponent.
2) build strawman
3) state own opinion as fact

Here are some facts:

http://robertdfeinman.com/society/gmu.html

Koch Industries is the largest privately held company in the country. The Koch family is part of the 18 super wealthy families who have worked for the elimination of the state tax.

From the report (PDF) on this, each Koch brother is worth about $12 billion and stands to have to pay about $4.7 billion in estate taxes, if not repealed. Koch Industries has spent $3.7 million on estate tax lobbying since 1998.

http://exiledonline.com/a-people-history-of-koch-industries-part-ii-libertarian-billionaires-charles-and-david-koch-are-closetcase-subsidy-kings-who-milk-big-government-tyranny-but-want-to-slash-spending-on-anyone-else/

Mainstream America is finally getting to know the billionaire brothers backing the libertarian movement, thanks to a pair of dueling profiles in New York and The New Yorker. Now that we’ve heard about their charitable giving, David’s 240-foot mega-yacht and role as patrons of the Tea Party movement, it’s time to ask a more serious question: How libertarian are they?

The short answer…not very.

Charles and David Koch, the secretive billionaire brothers who own Koch Industries, the largest private oil company in America, have spent millions bankrolling free-market think tanks and pro-business politicians in order, as David Koch has put it, “to minimize the role of government, to maximize the role of private economy and to maximize personal freedoms.” But a closer look at their dealings reveals that for the past 35 years the brothers have never shied away from using government subsidies to maximize their own profits, even while endeavoring to limit government spending on anything else. Simply put: the Kochs have no problem with socialism — as long as they’re in on the action.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests.

[...]

Five hundred people attended the summit, which served, in part, as a training session for Tea Party activists in Texas. An advertisement cast the event as a populist uprising against vested corporate power. “Today, the voices of average Americans are being drowned out by lobbyists and special interests,” it said. “But you can do something about it.” The pitch made no mention of its corporate funders. The White House has expressed frustration that such sponsors have largely eluded public notice. David Axelrod, Obama’s senior adviser, said, “What they don’t say is that, in part, this is a grassroots citizens’ movement brought to you by a bunch of oil billionaires.”

[...]

David Koch recalled that his father also indoctrinated the boys politically. “He was constantly speaking to us children about what was wrong with government,” he told Brian Doherty, an editor of the libertarian magazine Reason, and the author of “Radicals for Capitalism,” a 2007 history of the libertarian movement. “It’s something I grew up with—a fundamental point of view that big government was bad, and imposition of government controls on our lives and economic fortunes was not good.”

[...]

As their fortunes grew, Charles and David Koch became the primary underwriters of hard-line libertarian politics in America. Charles’s goal, as Doherty described it, was to tear the government “out at the root.” The brothers’ first major public step came in 1979, when Charles persuaded David, then thirty-nine, to run for public office. They had become supporters of the Libertarian Party, and were backing its Presidential candidate, Ed Clark, who was running against Ronald Reagan from the right. Frustrated by the legal limits on campaign donations, they contrived to place David on the ticket, in the Vice-Presidential slot; upon becoming a candidate, he could lavish as much of his personal fortune as he wished on the campaign. The ticket’s slogan was “The Libertarian Party has only one source of funds: You.” In fact, its primary source of funds was David Koch, who spent more than two million dollars on the effort.

The hits just keep on coming in that piece.

And there are others. The Koch bros. are just a very obvious example. Of course, they didn't just fund the tea partiers. Pretty much every "libertarian" outfit that you've heard of (and some that you likely haven't) have been bankrolled by others like them.

So let disperses with the idea of democracy and deal with each other one on one using the Golden rule principle.

The golden rule and democracy are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they are truly compatible. So no, I won't "disperses" with the idea of democracy.

[Anonymous]

Well, I fail to see anything shocking here. How are the Koch brothers infringing on people's rights again? Getting rid of the state tax? Avoiding their own taxes? More power to them. I don't like taxes either.

They have some of the largest private companies? Good for them.

Yeah, they use government subsidies but when everyone else is you can't let yourself sink. It's only a symptom of a bigger problem, bigger than the Kochs themselves.

[Anonymous]

Also, democracy is one of the worst forms of coercion. Tyranny of 51%.

[gene]

Well, I fail to see anything shocking here. How are the Koch brothers infringing on people's rights again? Getting rid of the state tax? Avoiding their own taxes? More power to them. I don't like taxes either.

They have some of the largest private companies? Good for them.

Yeah, they use government subsidies but when everyone else is you can't let yourself sink. It's only a symptom of a bigger problem, bigger than the Kochs themselves.

Yes. Every rich person's greatest problem is what to do to keep from giving anything back to the society that made their success possible in the first place. The end result of a society in which this is permitted to go unabated is pretty horrible.

For everyone else, like you, taxes help pay for things like clean water and many other things that libertarian types consistently forget all about.

Well, I don't know... Do you like roads? How about knowing that there are regulations that keep you from getting poisoned by tainted foods? Or the building codes/inspectors that keep the country from looking like Somalia? Or the internet? It was built using tax money. What's that? You thought the free market made all this happen? Nope. Taxes levied by representative (flawed, but existent democracy) government.

Th problem is clear: the rich will continue to abuse you until you realize that you can put an end to it. They use many tools. A favorite tool is propaganda - to fool you into supporting policy that sets favorable conditions (for them) that ensure that you will never be able to compete.

They have some of the largest private companies? Good for them.

This must really make people like the Koch brothers smile. Yeah - good for them. For you, not so much.

[gene]

As for the cartoon. I don't think that society is composed chiefly of "sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pit bulls for fun." Maybe you do, but that's not my problem.

[kiba]

Yes. Every rich person's greatest problem is what to do to keep from giving anything back to the society that made their success possible in the first place. The end result of a society in which this is permitted to go unabated is pretty horrible.

The rich doesn't own "society" anything. They are either productive or are thief. That's all that should matter.

For everyone else, like you, taxes help pay for things like clean water and many other things that libertarian types consistently forget all about.

Well, I don't know... Do you like roads? How about knowing that there are regulations that keep you from getting poisoned by tainted foods? Or the building codes/inspectors that keep the country from looking like Somalia? Or the internet? It was built using tax money. What's that? You thought the free market made all this happen? Nope. Taxes levied by representative (flawed, but existent democracy) government.

Libertarians don't ignore stuff like that. I don't even like roads. In fact, I think public roads are subsidy for corporations, as well being killers.

Th problem is clear: the rich will continue to abuse you until you realize that you can put an end to it. They use many tools. A favorite tool is propaganda - to fool you into supporting policy that sets favorable conditions (for them) that ensure that you will never be able to compete.

Nonsense. The media get rich by catering to people's bias and belief, not that the media is designed for propaganda of the few and powerful.

[gene]

I don't even like roads.

Beautiful. Your response makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. How are people supposed to get around? What would you prefer? Rail? Good luck with that... unless you're talking about paying for it with taxes.

Go to any major American city except those without good public transit (like NYC or San Fran). Ever been to Houston? Atlanta? Good luck trying to get anything done without a car. Although I agree that rail would be far better than just roads.

[kiba]

Beautiful. Your response makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. How are people supposed to get around? What would you prefer? Rail? Good luck with that... unless you're talking about paying for it with taxes.

It's called private roads. Plus tax is theft.

[gene]

Beautiful. Your response makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. How are people supposed to get around? What would you prefer? Rail? Good luck with that... unless you're talking about paying for it with taxes.

It's called private roads. Plus tax is theft.

This is a caricature. The teenage in this thread is strong.

It is easy to say that taxes are theft while enjoying the society that is in some large part built upon them. Actually, it is just funny/sad (depending on how much I've had to drink).

[Anonymous]

Society doesn't have to be built or depend on taxation. Voluntary cooperation can produce a much better result.

[kiba]

This is a caricature. The teenage in this thread is strong.

It is easy to say that taxes are theft while enjoying the society that is in some large part built upon them. Actually, it is just funny/sad (depending on how much I've had to drink).

It is theft according to libertarian ethical theory. Therefore, it is wrong even if I live on cushion of tax supported activities.

I cannot pay back the taxes back to the people who was forced to pay, but at the very least I can do is be committed to being a productive member of society to make up for those stolen money.

[Cryptoman]

Folks, seriously, we've been over all this territory a million times.  What happened to discussion of the Free State Project?  Ignore gene and he will go back to reading the New York Times.

[theymos]

Split from The Free State Project.

[genjix]

wtf roads are the ugliest piece of shit ever. why the fuck does every person need to own a car with parking right outside his house because their fat ass is too lazy to walk 20 m to a car-park or take a train.

here in europe everywhere is accessible by means of public transport. the reason american cities are so retarded (needing cars to go everywhere) is a result of amazingly retarded urban design due to extreme government regulation (suburbanism).



It's like suburbanists prefer to build cities for cars, not people.

See New Urbanism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGJt_YXIoJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fz-eSj9kQ4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism

If roads wouldn't exist as much as they do now if government didn't exist, then perhaps it's because we dont need them EVERYWHERE!!

suburbanism is the failed idea of a city being micromanaged by a central party, partitioned into specialised zones according to the industrial revolution philosophy. it's an epic failure. roads congest despite being optimised for efficiency (you have to travel from one specialised zone to the other side of the city for the next). people are depressed from spending all their time inside cars and lack of human interaction from bustling city centres. it's expensive, bad for the environment, urban sprawl, segregated (leading to rich areas and inner-city ghettos). absolute disaster.

[Anonymous]

You miss the elephant in the room. If there wasn't a government there would be no-one to bribe . Then what are the billionaires going to do to control people? Hire an army? No, its easier to pay a politician or lobby group. If you are so concerned about billionaires paying off government , why have government at all ?

So,in the abscence of the state who will they pay off to point guns at people ?

As for roads - without regulations we would all be flying cars around by now. No need for roads at all. In fact they are incentivised to keep roads and not innovate because of all the revenue from pointing guns at motorists. They are an easy target. Without roads your couldnt milk your population dry.

[gene]

wtf roads are the ugliest piece of shit ever. why the fuck does every person need to own a car with parking right outside his house because their fat ass is too lazy to walk 20 m to a car-park or take a train.

here in europe everywhere is accessible by means of public transport. the reason american cities are so retarded (needing cars to go everywhere) is a result of amazingly retarded urban design due to extreme government regulation (suburbanism).

It's like suburbanists prefer to build cities for cars, not people.

See New Urbanism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGJt_YXIoJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fz-eSj9kQ4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism

If roads wouldn't exist as much as they do now if government didn't exist, then perhaps it's because we dont need them EVERYWHERE!!

suburbanism is the failed idea of a city being micromanaged by a central party, partitioned into specialised zones according to the industrial revolution philosophy. it's an epic failure. roads congest despite being optimised for efficiency (you have to travel from one specialised zone to the other side of the city for the next). people are depressed from spending all their time inside cars and lack of human interaction from bustling city centres. it's expensive, bad for the environment, urban sprawl, segregated (leading to rich areas and inner-city ghettos). absolute disaster.

I appreciate your post. This plot basically makes my point for me. Check out Houston. Guess which city doesn't have zoning laws ("keeping gubmint regulation out of our lives"). Also, it and those cities in that cluster were built about the idea of the car as personal transport as opposed to decent mass transit. Guess who lobbied the hell out of this idea. (Hint: it ain't named "Texas tea" (think Houston) for nothing).

You see those red European cities? I believe that is what libertarians call "socialist, fascist, communist, statist..." They could have expanded outwards into suburbs in the 60s and 70s. But they didn't. Wonder why.

The point is that we need transport. And it ain't gonna happen "voluntarily." It requires taxation, mostly by those who have lots of money (like the Koch bros and their companies which have profited from society and from their lobbying). Most people understand this, even though they may not realize how little these people (very few who own/run these companies) give back to the country.

I should add that all media, being corporate controlled, is party to corporate propaganda. I don't know why anyone thinks I like the NYTimes -- my ideas are in discord with the establishment doctrine put forth my what are called "liberal" newspapers. These news companies cover news in predictable ways, corresponding to their respective audiences and advertisers. It seems it is an easy label (reader of X) to apply to people who disagree with you. I've been called a reader/watcher of everything from Fox to WSJ to NYTimes to you name it. This is basic tribalism: same teenager thought process in play. I don't take offense to it -- same way I don't get upset when babies cry. This is to be expected.

And I noticed that nobody has even attempted to address the points regarding the Koch bros. I'll repeat that they aren't the only ones doing this kind of thing. I am sorry to say that the whole libertarian movement is a farce being perpetrated by those with huge amounts of money and influence. The good news is that it's never too late to realize that you are being duped.

[gene]

You miss the elephant in the room. If there wasn't a government there would be no-one to bribe . Then what are the billionaires going to do to control people? Hire an army? No, its easier to pay a politician or lobby group. If you are so concerned about billionaires paying off government , why have government at all ?

Because until such a time as private power can be kept in check without a mediating force, expect to be taken advantage of by private power. Democracy is the best way we know of to handle this problem. Democracy gives each person equal power. Markets assign power based on money.

So,in the abscence of the state who will they pay off to point guns at people ?

Um, private "security" (mercs). This is so obvious as to be embarrassing. It has happened before and will happen again. Concentration of power and capital does not require a state.

As for roads - without regulations we would all be flying cars around by now. No need for roads at all.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA. Oh. Oh. Flying cars... ok, I'm better now.

In fact they are incentivised to keep roads and not innovate because of all the revenue from pointing guns at motorists. They are an easy target. Without roads your couldnt milk your population dry.

Again, we can see right now, today the effects of what you are advocating and compare to what I am advocating. Look at those red dots and blue dots. Let's discuss how those commie statist red dots managed to get things done. Well, it wasn't by deregulation and without taxes.