GHash.IO and double-spending against BetCoin Dice

[karbonxx]

okay.

[1715627558]

1715627558

[RangerK]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

Reassuring, though it'd be more so if they specified a threshold at which their counter measures kicked it.  Say, 40%.  They only say that they'll avoid reaching 51%.  Does that mean they'd be comfortable at 49%?

[whtchocla7e]

Well, a promise is a promise guys. We can breath easily now. Bitcoin is safe!!

Lets all hope GHash gets up to 51% quickly and stays there for a long time so no other entity will have a chance to perform an attack. Bitcoin would then be in good hands. Not exactly decentralized but in good hands. Promises are good forever.

[Tirapon]

This still isn't very good for what's supposed to be a trust-free decentralised payment network  

[Lynx!]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

Reassuring, though it'd be more so if they specified a threshold at which their counter measures kicked it.  Say, 40%.  They only say that they'll avoid reaching 51%.  Does that mean they'd be comfortable at 49%?

There's not difference for us between 40 and 49%. As long as they do not reach the 51% we are safe.

The real problem is that even if they allow users to mine from other pools, they can just switch back in every moment. That's a potential persistent threat, altought i don't think they are so stupid to really try to perform a 51% attack : that would be a suicide for them....

[Come-from-Beyond]

There's not difference for us between 40 and 49%. As long as they do not reach the 51% we are safe.

This is not 100% correct. There IS a difference between 40% and 49%. Even 49% is enough to do a successful double-spending attack.

[Dalkore]

If I understand the CEX.IO website correctly, it's a place where you can temporarily buy mining power that runs onto your own node? We've seen one of those before, didn't we?

I am curious who is stupid enough to rent their hardware out to random strangers over the internet and whether they understand what the point of mining actually is.

An interesting and historic milestone! I think this would be the first time we've seen miners profitably double-spend against merchants. If ghash.io was selling their hashpower to a criminal (and defrauding merchants is a crime regardless of the exact technique you're using), then that suggests we should be formally discouraging miners from using that pool.

well it is a private operation with private hardware, miners cant do anything about it, this is the time when miners have to start thinking about using p2pool.

SHAME and TRUST are powerful tools.  There is much that can be done.   I am researching this now.  As a precaution, I have informed all our hosting clients that requested Ghash.io as their pool are now being moved off the service until we get clear data on if the pool or customers in the pool are working in a counter-productive manner to Bitcoin mining.

[whtchocla7e]

SHAME and TRUST are powerful tools.  There is much that can be done.   I am researching this now.  As a precaution, I have informed all our hosting clients that requested Ghash.io as their pool are now being moved off the service until we get clear data on if the pool or customers in the pool are working in a counter-productive manner to Bitcoin mining.

Oooh, interesting. By looking at majority of the posts on this website, I would say most customers make choices based on projected returns. What if the customer doesn't care about the Bitcoin idealogy and just wants the best return on investment so to speak? Well, not my problem at least.  

[Dalkore]

which is to be commended

I haven't seen anything to commend except their business savvy:

Hashrate on their service is >2x more expensive than actually buying the hardware— more like 10x the price of stuff still in pre-order, and will never make a profit at those prices according to the calculator on their site. By doing so they centralize mining and create a moral hazard with apparent results like the one's we've seen here.

These are valid points.   

This reminds me of a recent Bloomberg story about all the fines JP Morgan paid tied to all the scandals they are involved with.   The guest said, "all that matters is their balance-sheet".  Basically he was giving cover to all their illegal actions because in the end, they found a way to profit from it while only paying $20 billion~ fines, like committing fraud is just a cost of doing business. 

That type of greedy criminal attitude is one of largest threats to Bitcoin. 

[mmitech]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

this is called horse shit, they did double spend @ 23% and nothing is preventing them from doing so now, they shouldn't have more than 33% ( read the selfish miner) neither any other pool no mater how honest the operator is, you never put trust on any individual it must be distributed equally among everyone on the network.. the is what Bitcoin as concept came to solve...


you fucking noobs don't get it right ?  you really piss me off !! "it is ok" , "it is not 51% yet" "they are honest" "who would destroy their business model"  well I guess you think the same about your banks, it is now that we do something about it or it is too late....

[yefi]

This has to be one of the most worrying developments I've read about in a long time. No single entity should be able to disrupt the system, even supposing their actions would need to be stupid or self-defeating

[Come-from-Beyond]

you fucking noobs don't get it right ?  you really piss me off !! "it is ok" , "it is not 51% yet" "they are honest" "who would destroy their business model"  well I guess you think the same about your banks, it is now that we do something about it or it is too late....

Well, we have to make appearance that everything is fine or at least under our control if we don't want to see single digits...

[bee7]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

this is called horse shit, they did double spend @ 23% and nothing is preventing them from doing so now, they shouldn't have more than 33% ( read the selfish miner) neither any other pool no mater how honest the operator is, you never put trust on any individual it must be distributed equally among everyone on the network.. the is what Bitcoin as concept came to solve...


you fucking noobs don't get it right ?  you really piss me off !! "it is ok" , "it is not 51% yet" "they are honest" "who would destroy their business model"  well I guess you think the same about your banks, it is now that we do something about it or it is too late....

The problem is that regular miners are attracted by 0% fees. You can do nothing unless you have enough BTC to incentive the half of the ghash.io miners to switch to your pool which also has 0% fees and you have enough resources to maintain such a pool.

Edit: or, well, all their miners as ghash.io states that 55% is the external miners and 45% - internal ghash.io hashing resources.

[mmitech]

https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf

this is called horse shit, they did double spend @ 23% and nothing is preventing them from doing so now, they shouldn't have more than 33% ( read the selfish miner) neither any other pool no mater how honest the operator is, you never put trust on any individual it must be distributed equally among everyone on the network.. the is what Bitcoin as concept came to solve...


you fucking noobs don't get it right ?  you really piss me off !! "it is ok" , "it is not 51% yet" "they are honest" "who would destroy their business model"  well I guess you think the same about your banks, it is now that we do something about it or it is too late....

The problem is that regular miners are attracted by 0% fees. You can do nothing unless you have enough BTC to incentive the half of the ghash.io miners to switch to your pool which also has 0% fees and you have enough resources to maintain such a pool.

Edit: or, well, all their miners as ghash.io states that 55% is the external miners and 45% - internal ghash.io hashing resources.

this is exactly what is worrying, it means that the regular miners has no clue neither cares about the network health, most of new comers try "generating free money" when just introduced to Bitcoin and this means they doesn't take any effort of understanding how Bitcoin protocol works.... I am really pissed off.... I wish I could change things....


nothing changed since I posted about this matter, in fact the hash rate keeps increasing, it is like we are doing them free advertisement instead of bringing awareness

 

[bee7]

Did ghash.io actually do double spends involving writing one or more blocks then trashing them and rewriting history in fresh blocks with a longer chain and different transactions ?

Or was it a simple experiment which involved zero confirmation of a transaction without fee followed by another transaction with fees just like it had been done against Satoshi Dice months ago?

It was the latter, however, it was not a simple experiment but the continuous intended behavior.

[qualia8]

you fucking noobs don't get it right ?  you really piss me off !! "it is ok" , "it is not 51% yet" "they are honest" "who would destroy their business model"  well I guess you think the same about your banks, it is now that we do something about it or it is too late....

Well, we have to make appearance that everything is fine or at least under our control if we don't want to see single digits...

Single digits would be the best thing for the currency right now.  Clear out the speculators, let the regulators laugh us off again, and think hard about developing ways to avoid this kind of bullshit going forward.  Most importantly, it would send a clear signal that getting 30+% of hashing power is not a desirable thing, because it crashes the currency and makes all of your investments worth nothing.  Then maybe pools won't be so nonchalant. 

Bring it on.

[Format.C^]

Single digits would be the best thing for the currency right now.  Clear out the speculators, let the regulators laugh us off again, and think hard about developing ways to avoid this kind of bullshit going forward.  Most importantly, it would send a clear signal that getting 30+% of hashing power is not a desirable thing, because it crashes the currency and makes all of your investments worth nothing.  Then maybe pools won't be so nonchalant.  
Bring it on.

I understand your concern, but why do you think that GHash.IO not understand the senselessness of the "51% attack"?
Is they stupid idiots? Do they want to compromise a network and turn their assets into dust?
In my opinion they are clearly indicated their position and we can only hope for their prudence. It's not as small as it seems, because the rich people always have common sense and logical thinking, otherwise they would not be rich.

[whtchocla7e]

Single digits would be the best thing for the currency right now.  Clear out the speculators, let the regulators laugh us off again, and think hard about developing ways to avoid this kind of bullshit going forward.  Most importantly, it would send a clear signal that getting 30+% of hashing power is not a desirable thing, because it crashes the currency and makes all of your investments worth nothing.  Then maybe pools won't be so nonchalant.  
Bring it on.

I understand your concern, but why do you think that GHash.IO not understand the senselessness of the "51% attack"?
Is they stupid idiots? Do they want to compromise a network and turn their assets into dust?
In my opinion they are clearly indicated their position and we can only hope for their prudence. It's not as small as it seems, because the rich people always have common sense and logical thinking, otherwise they would not be rich.

Hope? I hope Bitcoin is backed by something stronger than hope.

[Balthazar]

Hope? I hope Bitcoin is backed by something stronger than hope.

Yep, it's backed by Pope



We are all have to pray for divine punishment to heretic church of the cex.io and its clerics. Because a double-spending it's the eighth deadly sin here.

[edmundedgar]

Hope? I hope Bitcoin is backed by something stronger than hope.

Yup, it's backed by hope. Maths, Self-Interest and Hope, but of these the greatest is Hope.

Maths and self-interest might turn out to do what we need them to, but it's not a sure thing. We'll know more in a few years, when the mining business has completed the inevitable transition from benevolent gentleman anarchists to psychopaths with MBAs.