Taxes is not Theft

[kiba]

Dude, my inaugural magazine issue is like the first public domain issue ever and we still make money.  

All this stuff about how we can't make a living without copyright is a bunch of bollocks.

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1714029520

[BitterTea]

The Point
I think it is worth discussing how a company which must realize quarterly profits to justify its existence can sponsor basic research that won't provide marketable products for many years. This is ultimately why such work must be funded by some other entity, such as the public through taxes. It is an important question, and nobody here sees that this is the point I am trying to raise.

The only reason they must realize quarterly profits is because they are legally obligated to do so by the government.

[kiba]

The only reason they must realize quarterly profits is because they are legally obligated to do so by the government.

A lesswronger told me that 80% of biomedical research is actually funded by private corporations. As a result, the USA is the first nation in the world to receive many of the medical advancement.  We also have the highest cancer survival rate.

He then said that 20% are probably military R&D expenditure.

The european? They barely spend any money on biomedical research at all.

Now, I agree that the US healthcare system still sucks badly. It's all good old regulatory capture.

[theymos]

This seems more reasonable.  But...
1. Film studios might never release their products for DVD after the theatre period - what's in it for them?
2. I once saw a film that was pirated by using a hand-held in the cinema.  I didn't realise until someone in front of the camera got up and (presumably) went to the toilet.
3. Musicians would have a hard time making money - after their first concert all the music would be copied and distributed.  Lower quality yeah, but we're not all audiophiles.
4. How about authors and journalists?
5. Computer games writers?

I don't care about consequences to certain groups. I don't even care if the economy as a whole is less productive without IP (though I bet this would not be the case). I only care that IP is immoral.

[gene]

 

The only reason they must realize quarterly profits is because they are legally obligated to do so by the government.

A lesswronger told me that 80% of biomedical research is actually funded by private corporations. As a result, the USA is the first nation in the world to receive many of the medical advancement.  We also have the highest cancer survival rate.

He then said that 20% are probably military R&D expenditure.

The european? They barely spend any money on biomedical research at all.

Now, I agree that the US healthcare system still sucks badly. It's all good old regulatory capture.

You seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about. Maybe you should get out of the subdivision and check out the real world sometime. Your post count's rate may take a hit, but at least you'll learn how to not make yourself look like such an idiot. Maybe you'll even learn some grammar.

I don't care about consequences to certain groups. I don't even care if the economy as a whole is less productive without IP (though I bet this would not be the case). I only care that IP is immoral.

This from a man (?) who peddles a fucking ponzi scheme in his signature. You really think that this is the kind of thing that will help bitcoin? Anyone with even a modicum of decency will know what to think of your morals.

I just can't take any of you seriously.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

This from a man (?) who peddles a fucking ponzi scheme in his signature. You really think that this is the kind of thing that will help bitcoin? Anyone with even a modicum of decency will know what to think of your morals.

You seem to think everyone has the same morals as you, or should. Good luck with that.

And as for the ponzi scheme? It's honest and it's all of a bitcoin to enter. It's a game to people, not something like Amway 

[kiba]

You seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about. Maybe you should get out of the subdivision and check out the real world sometime. Your post count's rate may take a hit, but at least you'll learn how to not make yourself look like such an idiot. Maybe you'll even learn some grammar.

You're supposed to say "citation needed", not sprout insult about what I didn't say. Or even better, refute the statement.

I didn't say that's my official views. I said I heard it from somebody else. Nonetheless, I should have source the statement in the first place.

[BitterTea]

All this stuff about how we can't make a living without copyright is a bunch of bollocks.

I want to bring up copyright again because I came up with a market argument against intellectual property the other day.

Let's say that copyright laws are abolished. Let's say that following this, nobody is willing to pay for creative works anymore, like copyright supporters say. In addition, let's also assume that nobody is willing to create new works without getting paid. What will happen? As the supply of creative works dries up, one of two things happen.

1) Nobody cares. This means that those creative works were not actually fulfilling a need, and time and energy spent in their creation can be put to better use fulfilling other needs.

2) People care. This means that those creative works were fulfilling a need. People want more books, movies, tv shows, video games, but nobody is producing because nobody is willing to pay. Does it take an economist to understand what's going to happen? People are going to be yet again willing to pay to have works created, all in the absence of copyright law.

All of this assumes the absolute worse case scenario, that creative works are a purely economic good, nobody will pay for them if they don't have to, and nobody will create them if they can't get paid.

Feedback?

[kiba]

1) Nobody cares. This means that those creative works were not actually fulfilling a need, and time and energy spent in their creation can be put to better use fulfilling other needs.

If nobody cares than that mean they're enjoying the backlog of stuff produced in the last several century? I mean, there's million and million of songs, and million of books to digest.

[Anonymous]

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880

Interesting article about Somalia from 2006

Prime Minister Gedi of the TFG recently said, “It is totally misguided not to accept the government. The alternative is chaos.” Unfortunately, he’s got it exactly backwards. It is, in fact, the attempts to impose a government on Somalia that create chaos.

[em3rgentOrdr]

1) Nobody cares. This means that those creative works were not actually fulfilling a need, and time and energy spent in their creation can be put to better use fulfilling other needs.

If nobody cares than that mean they're enjoying the backlog of stuff produced in the last several century? I mean, there's million and million of songs, and million of books to digest.

I think the distinction should be made about new creative works.

You seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about. Maybe you should get out of the subdivision and check out the real world sometime. Your post count's rate may take a hit, but at least you'll learn how to not make yourself look like such an idiot. Maybe you'll even learn some grammar.

Enough with the ad-hominems, gene.

Kiba's grammar skills is irrelevant to his arguments.

I don't care about consequences to certain groups. I don't even care if the economy as a whole is less productive without IP (though I bet this would not be the case). I only care that IP is immoral.

This from a man (?) who peddles a fucking ponzi scheme in his signature. You really think that this is the kind of thing that will help bitcoin? Anyone with even a modicum of decency will know what to think of your morals.

I just can't take any of you seriously.

As for the ponzi schemes, I'm fine as long as they are honest and free to enter/leave.  Unlike social security.

[fergalish]

All this stuff about how we can't make a living without copyright is a bunch of bollocks.

I want to bring up copyright again because I came up with a market argument against intellectual property the other day.
<snip>
All of this assumes the absolute worse case scenario, that creative works are a purely economic good, nobody will pay for them if they don't have to, and nobody will create them if they can't get paid.
Feedback?

This is actually a very interesting discussion which will soon move from digital content to actual physical objects.  Heard of "reprap" or "fab@home"?  They are 3D printers which, eventually, should be able to quickly print out simple plastic, metallic and even electric/electronic goods (ok, electronics further in the future).  So suppose a simple small plastic piece in your car breaks, it's patented and is manufactured by only one company, so it costs $100.  You, instead, download the "pirated" design from the web and print it out at home, saving $99.  The revolution that started with audio cassette tapes and cheap photocopiers is about to go to 3D objects.  Exciting times ahead!

[Timo Y]

Do you also realize that you are advocating a system in which the individual does not have the right to assert ownership over his or her own creative works?

That system is soon becoming reality. Whether it's morally right or wrong is irrelevant.  This system will emerge by itself, regardless of what advocates and opponents do. It's unavoidable.  

De facto, nobody will have the power to "assert ownership" over information 20-30 years from now. The whole concept of copyright will be dead, as a simple consequence of the physics of information in the age of Petabyte hard disks and mesh networks. Regarldless of what is written in some law book.  

The only reason the whole concept of copyright was practicable in the first place was because it was tied to the technology of a certain era. Not the other way around.

Of course business will adapt. Instead of selling information (which nobody will buy because it's non-scarce), creative industries will sell personalised services. The computer games industry has already woken up to this new reality, and it's doing fine.