Please remove Chaang Noi (Goat) or BadBear from default trust list

[dave111223]

Even John, an admin here, thought it was such FUD  that he moved it out of the press board where you posted it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264339.0

Won't say I agree or disagree with leaving you feedback for it, but it isn't unjustified.

Your argument that I posted lies is that other people said so?  A lot of people said that world was flat, doesn't make it so.

If there is a specific thing that I said which you believe to be untrue, please let me know so what I can provide information backing up my claims.

[dave111223]

It seems that Goat read only the title of my topic, and none of the article itself.

Title was "Bitcoin illegal in Thailand", and then the article provided details as to exactly what bitcoin activities were considered illegal in the opinion of Thai authorities.

Read details here:
https://bitcoin.co.th/trading-suspended-due-to-bank-of-thailand-advisement/

[BadBear]

Even John, an admin here, thought it was such FUD  that he moved it out of the press board where you posted it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264339.0

Won't say I agree or disagree with leaving you feedback for it, but it isn't unjustified.

Your argument that I posted lies is that other people said so?

Yes, I do trust John infinitely more than I trust you, especially after the..."speculation" I've seen you post so far. It's also slightly amusing that you berate for using what someone else said, but at the same time want me to debate what someone else said.

[dave111223]

Even John, an admin here, thought it was such FUD  that he moved it out of the press board where you posted it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264339.0

Won't say I agree or disagree with leaving you feedback for it, but it isn't unjustified.

Your argument that I posted lies is that other people said so?

Yes, I do trust John infinitely more than I trust you, especially after the..."speculation" I've seen you post so far. It's also slightly amusing that you berate for using what someone else said, but at the same time want me to debate what someone else said.

John did not leave me any negative trust, Goat did, this is why I want to spend the time to debate, because currently i have a "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" next to my name, which could cause me difficulty in trading with people.

Will you please consider the core issue (did I lie) or recuse yourself; as opposed to keeping the debate at Ad Hominem level.

[DiamondCardz]

ADMIN HELP OUR SITUATION

I AM SAME PROUBLUM

WHY GOAT MAKE -6 ME MORNING TODAY

Stopped reading here, I don't want to know about how you are same proublum and how goat made -6 you morning today.

Wtf is this thread...

[User705]

Even John, an admin here, thought it was such FUD  that he moved it out of the press board where you posted it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264339.0

Won't say I agree or disagree with leaving you feedback for it, but it isn't unjustified.

Your argument that I posted lies is that other people said so?

Yes, I do trust John infinitely more than I trust you, especially after the..."speculation" I've seen you post so far. It's also slightly amusing that you berate for using what someone else said, but at the same time want me to debate what someone else said.

John did not leave me any negative trust, Goat did, this is why I want to spend the time to debate, because currently i have a "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" next to my name, which could cause me difficulty in trading with people.

Will you please consider the core issue (did I lie) or recuse yourself; as opposed to keeping the debate at Ad Hominem level.

Why do you think it could cause you difficulty trading with other people?  You are making something out of nothing.  There will be two types of people seeing your trust.  One set that agrees with Goat and thereby by extension disagrees with you and vice versa.  For those who agree with Goat you wouldn't want to trade with them anyways since by default they disagree with you.  So think of this as an effective filter of those people you wouldn't want to do business with anyways.  The multi page thread whining about it only increases that camp not decreases it.  Personally I think Bitcoin is so different that it is incompatible with the modern financial system so "BTC is illegal in Thailand" and "My BTC company was operating illegally in Thailand" is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.  The whining however is unproductive and annoying.

[dave111223]

Why do you think it could cause you difficulty trading with other people?  You are making something out of nothing.  There will be two types of people seeing your trust.  One set that agrees with Goat and thereby by extension disagrees with you and vice versa.  For those who agree with Goat you wouldn't want to trade with them anyways since by default they disagree with you.  So think of this as an effective filter of those people you wouldn't want to do business with anyways.  The multi page thread whining about it only increases that camp not decreases it.  Personally I think Bitcoin is so different that it is incompatible with the modern financial system so "BTC is illegal in Thailand" and "My BTC company was operating illegally in Thailand" is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.  The whining however is unproductive and annoying.

I do not think this rating will stop people from trading with dave. It will however stop people from publishing his trolling in the BCC (at least i hope so)

The warning says "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!", if for example i put an item up for auction ("trade") this could cause me to receive less bids, for people who are not interested in reading all the history and just steer clear because of this warning.

Note that EVERY user sees this warning by default, unless they have manually removed the default trust list from their settings.

Goat i have already provide clear evidence of why it is illegal to trade bitcoins in Thailand, yet instead of refuting this with your own evidence you just state that I'm silly/slow and of course that is wrong:

If you wanted to offer money changing services in Thailand you need a license:
Source: http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-2/h82/m1-9.html

BoT (Bank of Thailand) has the mandate to oversee money changing business and licenses:
Source: http://www.bot.or.th/ENGLISH/FOREIGNEXCHANGEREGULATIONS/FXREGULATION/Pages/ExchangeControlLaw.aspx

BoT will not issue any company or person with a license to change money if they are trading in bitcoin
BoT does consider trading bitcoins to be "changing money"
Source: Director - Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department - Mrs. Suthasinee Nimitkul
From the meeting in July.

[dave111223]

Applicable law:

http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-2/h82/m1-9.html

มาตรา 4 แก้ไขโดยพระราชกำหนดแก้ไขเพิ่มเติมพระราชบัญญัติฯ พุทธศักราช 2486 รก.2486/27/820/18 พฤษภาคม 2486]
มาตรา 4ทวิ ในการซื้อหรือขายเงินตราต่างประเทศหรือ เล็ตเตอร์ออฟเครดิต และการโอนเงินระหว่างประเทศ ธนาคารหรือบุคคล อื่นใดที่ได้รับอนุญาตให้ทำการแลกเปลี่ยนเงิน ต้องทำการนั้นให้ถูกต้องตาม ประกาศหรือคำสั่งของรัฐมนตรี

Translation:  You can't change money "เงินตรา" without permission from the minister (BoT).  However this could be argued that bitcoin is not "เงินตรา" (money issued by a government).  If this is your contention then move to next law below:

http://www.baanjomyut.com/library/law/82.html

มาตรา 9 ห้ามมิให้ผู้ใดทำ จำหน่าย ใช้ หรือนำออกใช้ซึ่งวัตถุหรือ เครื่องหมายใด ๆ แทนเงินตรา เว้นแต่จะได้รับอนุญาตจากรัฐมนตรี

This means that you cannot sell, use or issue anything (object, mark, symbol etc..) that could be a replacement of "เงินตรา" (money) without permission from the minister (BoT)

[steban]

The Goat is actually a snake.

I believe the Goat may be the most dangerous SCAMMER of bitcointalk. He is using multiple accounts to cover his work. It wont be long until we find who he really is.

[dave111223]

Goat you did not address the laws which I have specifically laid out for you.  If you wish to continue to state that I'm wrong then you must refute these references.

[User705]

It's spreading 

Why would you even think to change bitcoins just for the US regulation fetishists?
AFAIK Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand already and I didn't here any great plans to change the working system to fulfil Thailand's regulation.
Let the US forbid Bitcoins and let us see who looks like an idiot after China, Russia and Europe have sold their US $ for bitcoins...

edit:

And as I said before, the US banning Bitcoin might very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back and gives the world incentive to move away from the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Exactly!

[dave111223]

Goat you did not address the laws which I have specifically laid out for you.  If you wish to continue to state that I'm wrong then you must refute these references.

 

In none of the links did I find anywhere that it said "Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand"

You really are slow dude...

There is no law saying "You cannot keep a 3 year old in a basement and poke them with a stick", does that mean that it's legal to do that?  No, because there are laws again "Child Abuse" that those action would fall under.

Is there a law saying "You cannot smash someones car window with a hammer"? No, so is it legal to go around smashing peoples windows with a hammer?  No, because that would fall under "Property Damage" laws etc...

In the same way that bitcoin would fall under that laws that I have referenced in my previous post, because it would either be classified as "money" which is restricted under the first law, or it would be classified as a substitution for money which would be restricted under second law.

[dave111223]

Is gold not legal in thailand as well? Lol

It's illegal to start a gold shop without a license in Thailand, yes.

There are specific laws governing the buying/selling of gold, and you need a permit to do it (operate a business buying/selling gold). *

* Edit: although I have no first hand knowledge of this only what I have been told/read, and research this further if needed (though it is a tangent)
An example of article talking about Gold shop requiring to registered with BoT:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/7500-gold-shops-must-be-registered-Commerce-30217019.html

[dave111223]

Is gold not legal in thailand as well? Lol

It's illegal to start a gold shop without a license in Thailand, yes.

There are specific laws governing the buying/selling of gold, and you need a permit to do it (operate a business buying/selling gold).

So both gold and btc are not illegal in thailand.

Cool.

If this is case then you must be able to show at least one business that is legally buying/selling bitcoins in Thailand, and a business that is legally buying/selling gold without any permits?

[dave111223]

Is gold not legal in thailand as well? Lol

It's illegal to start a gold shop without a license in Thailand, yes.

There are specific laws governing the buying/selling of gold, and you need a permit to do it (operate a business buying/selling gold).

So both gold and btc are not illegal in thailand.

Cool.

If this is case then you must be able to show at least one business that is legally buying/selling bitcoins in Thailand, and a business that is legally buying/selling gold without any permits?

I think you are just trolling. Im done with this.

Why would I be "trolling", I'm here with a specific purpose, and that it to show that your negative trust is incorrect.  You continue to ignore the specific applicable laws that I have shown, instead make statements with absolutely no evidence to back them up, you can't even seem show me one single legitimate real world example and yet I'm the one that is trolling?

[steban]

Hey Goat, I'm still waiting for an answer to this:


Now, I have proven that you are a LIAR twice.

[dave111223]

Goat you have still not addressed the specific law reference that I provided.

If it's a face saving issue and you don't want to be seen as "wrong" I can understand that and I can also see your side of the argument.

I'm sure that if one wanted to (or was forced to do so) one could challenge the position of the BoT in court and the court may agree that Bitcoin should not be considered "money" or a "replacement of money", in which case the BoT would have no authority to restrict it.

Given that this has not yet been tested in court it's not 100% clear it the BoT claims would hold up, as such you may not be wrong, in the future someone may make this legal challenge and win and your position would have been validated.  But until that time your negative trust in unwarranted.

[dave111223]

You are now on my ignore.

If you still can not understand why claiming that "Bitcoin is illegal" in Thailand when there is no law at all claiming so then you need help and people should be warned about you.

The laws you pointed to would make gold illegal if btc was illegal. You are just being silly (or trolling or stupid).

Anyway I'm done with you and this.

You have still not addressed why you think these laws don't apply to bitcoin?  Instead you use a gold as a strawman argument when you know there are specific laws governing gold and even in the US there are legal tender laws blocking the use of gold as a currency.

[Oldminer]

Its a confusing ass system. Sometimes I look at it and just kind of wonder how someone ended up with a certain feedback score, try and investigate, and just give up and declare it witchcraft.

So if you dont understand it, what chance do newbs have?

And as for goat being on the DefaultTrust list, I mean wtf? And If I read this right, he paid to be on it? LOL

Wow, this whole 'trust system' should be renamed 'abuse system', because that is how its commonly used. Everyone on this board would agree, (except for an elect few who seem to have enough buddies to make sure they all pat each on the back and give each other positive trust), the whole thing is farcical. Theymos said he would 'trial' this system & kudos for making the effort, but it has failed, and failed miserably. As a result, reps are inaccurate to a large degree, and as such are meaningless & misleading, except to those that dont understand the system and accept ratings at face value.

Its about time the whole 'trust system' was removed. It has failed to achieve its goal, and contrary to its aims, is a broken mess that is not to be trusted.

[DiamondCardz]

Gravedig moar. I do believe the Trust system has flaws which do need to be fixed ASAP, though. The idea behind the Trust System is quite good and well thought-out, but when it comes to how DefaultTrust is managed (100% centralized, as a matter of fact) and the actual execution of the system, it falls apart.