Open questions to Jered and Alan of Tradehill

[Smalleyster]

Gentlemen,

1) Can I mail you a check drawn on a US bank and you deposit it to my TH account after it clears?

2) Will you mail me a check up to and including my entire USD amount in my acount with you whenever I ask?

I admit being very nervous about any ACH transaction options both in and out of your firm, but I feel you have been upstanding citizens in how you have handled yourselves over the past few days and really want to find a way to keep doing business with you that does not; 1) cost me an arm and a leg and 2) expose me to identity theft.

I sincerely hope that you give me two yesses quickly.

Thank you.

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[CubedRoot]

Im going to add mine in here as well:

Tradehill: Will you reconsider your decision to stop allowing Withdrawals from Tradehill using Dwolla?   Dwolla withdrawals dont expose you to fraud in the same manner as Dwolla deposits to Tradehill.
My reasoning is money savings. 
Like I have mentioned in other threads, to use Paxum to get my USD from my Tradehill account to my bank account will cost me a total of $6 in fees.  If I used Dwolla to get my funds from Tradehill to my bank I only paid a total of $.50 in fees.
I also absolutely hate having to pretty much hand over all of my personal information over to Paxum in order to comply with their TOS. I dont trust ANY web service with a photocopy of my passport or Drivers License, not to mention having to send them a photocopy of a utility bill.

[JoelKatz]

Tradehill: Will you reconsider your decision to stop allowing Withdrawals from Tradehill using Dwolla?   Dwolla withdrawals dont expose you to fraud in the same manner as Dwolla deposits to Tradehill.

They do expose TradeHill to precisely the same fraud. You ask for $1,000 through Dwolla. TradeHill send the $1,000 to Dwolla. Dwolla refuses to transfer the money to you claiming TradeHill has a negative balance with them because two other transactions from last month were just reversed. TradeHill cannot send a single dollar to Dwolla until Dwolla reimburses them the money they are owed and commits to no future chargebacks based on past transactions.

[sequence]

Joelkatz.. I have learnt a lot on these forums just with your input alone . Thank you!

[Smalleyster]

Joelkatz.. I have learnt a lot on these forums just with your input alone . Thank you!

+1!

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam


Edit by Jered: See below, we will send out checks for much smaller amounts and are looking in to accepting incoming checks.

[Smalleyster]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

Ouch! Wrong answer. Best of luck to you both. Cashing out now, sadly.

[Mt.Fun]

I also absolutely hate having to pretty much hand over all of my personal information over to Paxum in order to comply with their TOS. I dont trust ANY web service with a photocopy of my passport or Drivers License, not to mention having to send them a photocopy of a utility bill.

There are active fraudsters out there. Asking for your information.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

Ouch! Wrong answer. Best of luck to you both. Cashing out now, sadly.

Smalleyster,

I've been traveling and out of the loop so I need to apologize for that. I handle most of the payment options and Adam was filling in while I was at 30,000ft.

There are two transactions here.

1) Checks out replacing Dwolla out. We can certainly send a check. We will send it for free as well. I will ask the bank if there is an easy way we can do this by submitting a CSV etc or another option. If there isn't an easy way to do this then I will sit down and write check after check personally until my fingers are blistered. Once again, free of charge.

2) Checks in. I've been looking in to options for receiving checks but it needs to be 100% free of chargebacks on our end and affordable. I beleive that I've found a solution and hopefully will have an announcement in a few days.


We will 100% write you a check to pull out funds you would have normally removed via Dwolla. Free.
If we can accept checks in we will, we'll evaluate it at first and then keep it if it's a viable option.

Smalleyster, sometimes you hate us, sometimes you love us but you're always honest, non biased and provide excellent feedback. We enjoy having you on these boards regardless if you stay a TradeHill customer or not. We would prefer that you do and are willing to work with everyone to find the best way to get funds in and out until everyone is using Bitcoin and we don't need an exchange.

Feel free to contact me if you need anything in the future.


Regards,
Jered

[Bitcoin Swami]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

Ouch! Wrong answer. Best of luck to you both. Cashing out now, sadly.

Smalleyster,

I've been traveling and out of the loop so I need to apologize for that. I handle most of the payment options and Adam was filling in while I was at 30,000ft.

There are two transactions here.

1) Checks out replacing Dwolla out. We can certainly send a check. We will send it for free as well. I will ask the bank if there is an easy way we can do this by submitting a CSV etc or another option. If there isn't an easy way to do this then I will sit down and write check after check personally until my fingers are blistered. Once again, free of charge.

2) Checks in. I've been looking in to options for receiving checks but it needs to be 100% free of chargebacks on our end and affordable. I beleive that I've found a solution and hopefully will have an announcement in a few days.


We will 100% write you a check to pull out funds you would have normally removed via Dwolla. Free.
If we can accept checks in we will, we'll evaluate it at first and then keep it if it's a viable option.

Smalleyster, sometimes you hate us, sometimes you love us but you're always honest, non biased and provide excellent feedback. We enjoy having you on these boards regardless if you stay a TradeHill customer or not. We would prefer that you do and are willing to work with everyone to find the best way to get funds in and out until everyone is using Bitcoin and we don't need an exchange.

Feel free to contact me if you need anything in the future.


Regards,
Jered

Nice.  I got a few hundred in there still and i'll keep it in, cause I wanna support you guys.

[Smalleyster]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

Ouch! Wrong answer. Best of luck to you both. Cashing out now, sadly.

Smalleyster,

I've been traveling and out of the loop so I need to apologize for that. I handle most of the payment options and Adam was filling in while I was at 30,000ft.

There are two transactions here.

1) Checks out replacing Dwolla out. We can certainly send a check. We will send it for free as well. I will ask the bank if there is an easy way we can do this by submitting a CSV etc or another option. If there isn't an easy way to do this then I will sit down and write check after check personally until my fingers are blistered. Once again, free of charge.

2) Checks in. I've been looking in to options for receiving checks but it needs to be 100% free of chargebacks on our end and affordable. I beleive that I've found a solution and hopefully will have an announcement in a few days.


We will 100% write you a check to pull out funds you would have normally removed via Dwolla. Free.
If we can accept checks in we will, we'll evaluate it at first and then keep it if it's a viable option.

Smalleyster, sometimes you hate us, sometimes you love us but you're always honest, non biased and provide excellent feedback. We enjoy having you on these boards regardless if you stay a TradeHill customer or not. We would prefer that you do and are willing to work with everyone to find the best way to get funds in and out until everyone is using Bitcoin and we don't need an exchange.

Feel free to contact me if you need anything in the future.

Regards,
Jered

Much better answer, too bad you hit send to the first one as I have cashed out my meager ammount in btc. Thank you for sending it within minutes. For now I will sit on the sidelines and see what your next moves are and how they work out over the longer haul for your other clients.

Frankly I was utterly stunned at the previous post as I had never dreamed either of you would say something that foolish.

Here's hoping it all works out for the best.


PS: At no time have I "hated you" and I apologize if I have given that impression. If anything there is a PM in your files whereby I spent a *lot* of time and effort attempting to help you assure you would not repeat a small mistake in public again. Thankfully you have not. I deeply respect both of you for not only getting out in public on this dwolla debacle, but also in the way you have done it.

[Smalleyster]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

I just realized this was Adam and not Jered who made this post. My bad for not carefully checking the signature as the post was made under Jered's account and I therefore asumed it was from him.

1) Adam, I strongly suggest you make your own acount and post as yourself.

2) I strongly suggest you check with Jered before hitting send.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Hi Folks,

We cannot keep any money with Dwolla for the reasons stated By Joel.

We wish there was a good way to quickly move funds in and out of exchanges. Dwolla looked like the solution but now it’s apparent that 25 cents per transaction is insufficient to buy merchants fraud protection. Noting also that fraud by reversible transactions was not the only data errors we found; i.e. transactions vanishing from statements and more without notice.

Regarding checks by mail - we could do this if the amount was large enough like 5 or 10k.

Email me at adam@tradehill.com and we can make arrangements.

Thanks,
Adam

Ouch! Wrong answer. Best of luck to you both. Cashing out now, sadly.

Smalleyster,

I've been traveling and out of the loop so I need to apologize for that. I handle most of the payment options and Adam was filling in while I was at 30,000ft.

There are two transactions here.

1) Checks out replacing Dwolla out. We can certainly send a check. We will send it for free as well. I will ask the bank if there is an easy way we can do this by submitting a CSV etc or another option. If there isn't an easy way to do this then I will sit down and write check after check personally until my fingers are blistered. Once again, free of charge.

2) Checks in. I've been looking in to options for receiving checks but it needs to be 100% free of chargebacks on our end and affordable. I beleive that I've found a solution and hopefully will have an announcement in a few days.


We will 100% write you a check to pull out funds you would have normally removed via Dwolla. Free.
If we can accept checks in we will, we'll evaluate it at first and then keep it if it's a viable option.

Smalleyster, sometimes you hate us, sometimes you love us but you're always honest, non biased and provide excellent feedback. We enjoy having you on these boards regardless if you stay a TradeHill customer or not. We would prefer that you do and are willing to work with everyone to find the best way to get funds in and out until everyone is using Bitcoin and we don't need an exchange.

Feel free to contact me if you need anything in the future.

Regards,
Jered

Much better answer, too bad you hit send to the first one as I have cashed out my meager ammount in btc. Thank you for sending it within minutes. For now I will sit on the sidelines and see what your next moves are and how they work out over the longer haul for your other clients.

Frankly I was utterly stunned at the previous post as I had never dreamed either of you would say something that foolish.

Here's hoping it all works out for the best.


PS: At no time have I "hated you" and I apologize if I have given that impression. If anything there is a PM in your files whereby I spent a *lot* of time and effort attempting to help you assure you would not repeat a small mistake in public again. Thankfully you have not. I deeply respect both of you for not only getting out in public on this dwolla debacle, but also in the way you have done it.

Thanks, first off maybe hate was the wrong word. I didn't mean it to be negative just that you've shown a range of emotions when we post back and forth haha.

Feel free to have a seat on the sidelines and watch how it goes. We've got some really amazing things lined up. I think one in particular is going completely change Bitcoin. I don't think it will be long before you're back in the game.

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I just realized this was Adam and not Jered who made this post. My bad for not carefully checking the signature as the post was made under Jered's account and I therefore asumed it was from him.

1) Adam, I strongly suggest you make your own acount and post as yourself.

2) I strongly suggest you check with Jered before hitting send.

He's either made or making a new account now and awaiting whitelisting. No need to share an account.
We try to QC everything that goes out as I've made a few mistakes that could have been easily prevented had I spoken with Adam first.
I was flying and we've spoken at length about this and are going to make it right. Fortunately everyone on the team has their strengths and we balance each other out well. I'd like to introduce more of the team soon so users can "meet" the people replying to their emails.

Jered

[Smalleyster]

Thanks, first off maybe hate was the wrong word. I didn't mean it to be negative just that you've shown a range of emotions when we post back and forth haha.

Feel free to have a seat on the sidelines and watch how it goes. We've got some really amazing things lined up. I think one in particular is going completely change Bitcoin. I don't think it will be long before you're back in the game.

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Believe it or not I am rooting for you all the way because you have shown a level of professionalism that should be both admired and emulated.

C'mon now...knock our socks off!

[BitPay Business Solutions]

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Jered - try calling Bank of America and seeing what it takes to get electronically setup as an online bill-pay vendor.  Those payments are cleared in 1 day, and ask about the reversals.  If that looks promising, you'll need to get setup with all the major banks that way.  it will take time, but it's better than processing checks!

Good luck!

Tony

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Jered - try calling Bank of America and seeing what it takes to get electronically setup as an online bill-pay vendor.  Those payments are cleared in 1 day, and ask about the reversals.  If that looks promising, you'll need to get setup with all the major banks that way.  it will take time, but it's better than processing checks!

Good luck!

Tony

It's been a pain dealing with them over the phone so I flew up to talk with them personally. I've got an appointment Monday morning and hope to have a solid answer on this by the end of the day. If it's not ready I'll have an ETA.

Jered

[Smalleyster]

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Jered - try calling Bank of America and seeing what it takes to get electronically setup as an online bill-pay vendor.  Those payments are cleared in 1 day, and ask about the reversals.  If that looks promising, you'll need to get setup with all the major banks that way.  it will take time, but it's better than processing checks!

Good luck!

Tony

And we can then also walk up to the local counter and deposit cash directly into your acount.

[Bitcoin Swami]

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Jered - try calling Bank of America and seeing what it takes to get electronically setup as an online bill-pay vendor.  Those payments are cleared in 1 day, and ask about the reversals.  If that looks promising, you'll need to get setup with all the major banks that way.  it will take time, but it's better than processing checks!

Good luck!

Tony

It's been a pain dealing with them over the phone so I flew up to talk with them personally. I've got an appointment Monday morning and hope to have a solid answer on this by the end of the day. If it's not ready I'll have an ETA.

Jered

If you use bank of america cant I theoretically just go to any branch and deposit cash into your account? I thought my girlfriends mom used to do that for her all the time.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I'm going to look in to the other ACH method you had mentioned and see if we can make it work, thanks again for all the feedback and we'll stay in contact.

Jered

Jered - try calling Bank of America and seeing what it takes to get electronically setup as an online bill-pay vendor.  Those payments are cleared in 1 day, and ask about the reversals.  If that looks promising, you'll need to get setup with all the major banks that way.  it will take time, but it's better than processing checks!

Good luck!

Tony

It's been a pain dealing with them over the phone so I flew up to talk with them personally. I've got an appointment Monday morning and hope to have a solid answer on this by the end of the day. If it's not ready I'll have an ETA.

Jered

If you use bank of america cant I theoretically just go to any branch and deposit cash into your account? I thought my girlfriends mom used to do that for her all the time.

That would be great if we could get that working. In the past we had to wait a really long time to verify it. When I speak with them on Monday I'll ask if we can fix that. I'm also going to speak with other banks on Monday and if they have a better verification process we'll use them for in person deposits. The idea is agreat and we would love to use it.

[Andrew Vorobyov]

I don't know how you do it in USA, but here in Israel it's illegal.. You can deposit only to your account ONLY. After this make transfers wherever you like.

[The_JMiner]

I don't know how you do it in USA, but here in Israel it's illegal.. You can deposit only to your account ONLY. After this make transfers wherever you like.

It many countries it is legal to deposit into someones else account and it is considered the norm in some countries (example: central/south america)

I mentioned this idea to Tradehill the ability to deposit say $100 at a local BofA. The bank gives you a deposit receipt (proof) and you can send it to Tradehill if anything.

[indio007]

I know some landlords that give their tenants deposit slips and have the tenant deposit it in the banks directly. Very good protection for the tenant. Yes this is in the US. It is no problem at all to deposit money in someone else's account. I'm baffled that it's illegal.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I spoke with the bank in person today. It's completely legal and at first sounds like a great option. The banker admitted that occasionally the slip doesn't get put in the system and it can be very confusing. I do this all the time to pay for things in Chile but in the US it's not quite as efficient in reality. I'm speaking with additional banks tomorrow and would really like to offer this service. If at all possible we will immediately. If the risk is too high we will have to leave it off the list.

Additionally the blog has been updated and we're now sending out checks on request.

Jered

[Smalleyster]

I spoke with the bank in person today. It's completely legal and at first sounds like a great option. The banker admitted that occasionally the slip doesn't get put in the system and it can be very confusing. I do this all the time to pay for things in Chile but in the US it's not quite as efficient in reality. I'm speaking with additional banks tomorrow and would really like to offer this service. If at all possible we will immediately. If the risk is too high we will have to leave it off the list.

Additionally the blog has been updated and we're now sending out checks on request.

Jered

BoA and Wells Fargo are the ones to start with. Regions is big here in the South East.

Good luck!

[repentance]

I know some landlords that give their tenants deposit slips and have the tenant deposit it in the banks directly. Very good protection for the tenant. Yes this is in the US. It is no problem at all to deposit money in someone else's account. I'm baffled that it's illegal.

You can probably also deposit into someone else's account through online banking if you can do it over the counter at a branch.  Here an online deposit to the same bank is instantly available, while a deposit to a different bank can take a couple of days to process.  Either way, there's no need to physically visit the bank.

Becoming a biller with a billpay platform would make things simple for exchange clients because they could deposit funds by phone, online or in person, but billpay schemes typically involve interchange fees for the billers who are part of the scheme.

I think one issue which has emerged is how different the banking systems are in the various places the exchanges do business. Things which are dead simple and low cost in one location are complex and expensive somewhere else.  There's no "one size fits all" solution for the issue of depositing and withdrawing funds to and from the exchanges. Implementing and maintaining different systems for different locations is going to be a serious pain in the ass and every extra step which is added to the process introduces another potential failure point. 

The exchanges need to stop rushing to market with half-assed bandaid solutions adopted on the fly and refrain from promising solutions until they're certain they can deliver.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

The biggest problem in the end for all of these things is fraud. If we accept these transfers we have to give our account numbers out and exchanges are extremely high value targets for fraud. If we can do it safely we'll do it. If we get a lot of fraud and run a completely legit business they can still shut us down though. It's a balancing act between ease of use and security.

Jered

[Smalleyster]

The biggest problem in the end for all of these things is fraud. If we accept these transfers we have to give our account numbers out and exchanges are extremely high value targets for fraud. If we can do it safely we'll do it. If we get a lot of fraud and run a completely legit business they can still shut us down though. It's a balancing act between ease of use and security.

Jered

I don't see how acccepting cash at the teller's counter to an account that is merely used as a feeder to your other account(s) could possibly fall victim to fraud. Just be sure that the depositor had a transaction number that can only be used one time to add those funds to his/her account. You will not be inventing the wheel here.

[indio007]

The good part of being able to deposit into a bank is there are cameras. It's a nearly impossible to say " I deposited money to Tradehill but I didn't get credit" when they don't have a deposit slip and there is no video of them making the deposit.

[repentance]

The good part of being able to deposit into a bank is there are cameras. It's a nearly impossible to say " I deposited money to Tradehill but I didn't get credit" when they don't have a deposit slip and there is no video of them making the deposit.

I think you're over-estimating the willingness of banks to make their security footage available to customers and third parties.  I also suspect that banks only keep their security footage for a very limited amount of time, just like other businesses.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

The biggest problem in the end for all of these things is fraud. If we accept these transfers we have to give our account numbers out and exchanges are extremely high value targets for fraud. If we can do it safely we'll do it. If we get a lot of fraud and run a completely legit business they can still shut us down though. It's a balancing act between ease of use and security.

Jered

I don't see how acccepting cash at the teller's counter to an account that is merely used as a feeder to your other account(s) could possibly fall victim to fraud. Just be sure that the depositor had a transaction number that can only be used one time to add those funds to his/her account. You will not be inventing the wheel here.

It's not so much the deposits that I'm worried about. It's publishing the account number and then getting online transfers from phished accounts and those getting pulled back. There are a few other scams that can be done which I'll discuss in private and I'm sure the scammers already know anyways. If we can manage the risk we'll do it, see what bank number #2 and #3 have to say tomorrow.

As far as deposits in person I'd love it.

The bank really really doesn't want us to just give out the account numbers.

[GeniuSxBoY]

Jered, I hope you have a $1000 withdrawl limit on your site.


Otherwise, someone who has all of Mybitcoin and Polands Bitcoins can wipeout your entire site.

[frozen]

The bank really really doesn't want us to just give out the account numbers.

Setup a separate account specifically for deposits. This limits your risk, since your main account number(s) can remain hidden. Then it would simply be a process of transferring funds from the deposit account into your main account. Perhaps this process could be automated. If not, I assume it would be performed daily. The risk then would only be limited to the average daily balance in that account.

To further mitigate that risk, you could ask the bank to block all withdrawals/ACH from the deposit account. The only withdrawal that would be permitted, by anyone, would be transferring from that publicly facing account into the private main account.

[Nicolai Larsen]

Why not use something like MoneyBookers?

[error]

Why not use something like MoneyBookers?

PayPal and other such services are far too high-risk.

[Nicolai Larsen]

Why not use something like MoneyBookers?

PayPal and other such services are far too high-risk.

Really? I know PayPal is risky, but I thought MoneyBookers didn't do chargebacks when we are talking simple "sending money to another MoneyBookers account"?

Guess I was wrong :/

edit: Why couldn't Tradehill give the possibility of withdrawing money to moneybookers? Unless Tradehill would demand a chargeback? But then they would be seen as fraudulent?

[MsBitcoin]

If you send checks out of your business account each check will have the routing number and account number on it.

How is this different than giving out the account # so people can make cash deposits?

[JoelKatz]

Why couldn't Tradehill give the possibility of withdrawing money to moneybookers? Unless TradeHill would demand a chargeback? But then they would be seen as fraudulent?

1) I go to withdraw $1,000 from TradeHill using MoneyBookers. I have a zero balance with MoneyBookers.

2) A transaction I made through MoneyBookers three months ago gets reversed by a scammer. MoneyBookers now claims I have a negative balance and uses my TradeHill transaction to offset it.

3) I complain to TradeHill about not getting my $1,000. What do they say? "Sorry, we did our part. It's not our fault MoneyBookers stole your money. After all, you told us to send it to them."

If you find the excuse in '3' acceptable, then why wouldn't it have been acceptable for TradeHill to just take the thousands Dwolla reversed out of their Dwolla deposits? After all, TradeHill's customers sent that money to Dwolla. It's not TradeHill's fault Dwolla decided to use it to offset scammed transactions.

Any scheme that allows a scammer to steal their customer's money despite no fraud or funny business on the part of their customer is a poor choice for an exchange.

[repentance]

Why not use something like MoneyBookers?

All of the payment processors associated with online poker have been under scrutiny by the US Department of Justice.  There's obviously a risk that those services may find their funds frozen as the online poker drama continues to unfold.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

About checks: They're coming directly from the bank, I'll confirm if the account / routing are on it but I don't believe so. Valid point though.

Frozen: If it's the same bank they (the ones I've spoken with) treat all accounts the same. If we have one account for wires (which is what we did in the past) and they have fraud concerns all the accounts will be effected. Banks are very careful with fraud and won't hesitate to act even if the fraud is coming towards us and not from us.

Moneybookers: obviously less risk outgoing and most likely we will do that. There is still some risk as JoelKatz pointed out but we're going to clarify that with them and would like to offer it soon.

Geniusxboy: I believe Polands BTC was deleted but I could be wrong. If the mybitcoin funds were stolen then this could be a possibility. We see large amounts of BTC come in and out daily for legitimate reasons though and with a withdraw limit they would still be able to manipulate the market on TradeHill or any other exchange to a degree. If they're trying to maximize the currency they can remove though it wouldn't make sense.

Jered

[GeniuSxBoY]

Geniusxboy: I believe Polands BTC was deleted but I could be wrong. If the mybitcoin funds were stolen then this could be a possibility. We see large amounts of BTC come in and out daily for legitimate reasons though and with a withdraw limit they would still be able to manipulate the market on TradeHill or any other exchange to a degree. If they're trying to maximize the currency they can remove though it wouldn't make sense.

Jered

If I were a hacker, and I stole massive bitcoin, I would have the patience to maximize my earnings undetected by spending a little at a time.

However, in this case, the more time that's wasted, the more time Poland has a chance to recover their wallet and transfer the coins.

I would definitely seek to unload these coins swiftly on an exchange that didn't have limits and I could get away with the money before you had a chance to freeze my account.

What do you think?

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Geniusxboy: I believe Polands BTC was deleted but I could be wrong. If the mybitcoin funds were stolen then this could be a possibility. We see large amounts of BTC come in and out daily for legitimate reasons though and with a withdraw limit they would still be able to manipulate the market on TradeHill or any other exchange to a degree. If they're trying to maximize the currency they can remove though it wouldn't make sense.

Jered

If I were a hacker, and I stole massive bitcoin, I would have the patience to maximize my earnings undetected by spending a little at a time.

However, in this case, the more time that's wasted, the more time Poland has a chance to recover their wallet and transfer the coins.

I would definitely seek to unload these coins swiftly on an exchange that didn't have limits and I could get away with the money before you had a chance to freeze my account.

What do you think?

It's a possibility and we manually watch large withdraws and always are looking for suspicious activity. I disagree on the recovering the wallet part though. If someone is smart enough to steal the coins they would know all they have to do to prevent that is move it to a new wallet unless I'm missing something of course.

Jered

[kjj]

About checks: They're coming directly from the bank, I'll confirm if the account / routing are on it but I don't believe so. Valid point though.

If it doesn't have your routing and account numbers on it, it isn't a check.

[JoelKatz]

If it doesn't have your routing and account numbers on it, it isn't a check.

You mean if it doesn't have someone's routing and account numbers on it, it's not a check. My checks don't have his routing or account numbers on them, and they are checks. If the bank is issuing the check, then it won't have his info on it.

[kjj]

If it doesn't have your routing and account numbers on it, it isn't a check.

You mean if it doesn't have someone's routing and account numbers on it, it's not a check. My checks don't have his routing or account numbers on them, and they are checks. If the bank is issuing the check, then it won't have his info on it.

If the bank is sending checks drawn on the bank's own account, then you are right, those checks will not bear his account number.  Those checks will also be paid for up front, rather than at clearing.  Oh, and I've never seen a bank offer a service even remotely like that as a mainstream normal activity, while every bank in the country is completely willing to print and mail checks bearing the customer's account numbers, either for free, or for a nominal fee.

[MsBitcoin]

Neither have I, outside of Cashiers Checks which are paid for in advance as stated, but even then I have never heard of a bank that will issue and mail checks as Tradehill is planning.

It almost sounds like Tradehill plans on granting the bank signing rights on their accounts to function as their outgoing payment arm.  Again I have never heard of a bank that will do that and if they did Tradehills account info would be on each check.

[JoelKatz]

If the bank is sending checks drawn on the bank's own account, then you are right, those checks will not bear his account number.  Those checks will also be paid for up front, rather than at clearing.  Oh, and I've never seen a bank offer a service even remotely like that as a mainstream normal activity, while every bank in the country is completely willing to print and mail checks bearing the customer's account numbers, either for free, or for a nominal fee.

I have a client in Austria who pays me this way. He logs into his online banking and directs a bank payment. I receive a payment from his bank's US affiliate, from a special outgoing payments account. (He doesn't have an account in their US affiliate.) The only personally identifiable information of his that it contains, I think, is his name (though I didn't look very closely).

This may be an Austrian thing, something specific with his bank, or something like that. I never really thought about how unusual it was.

[Nicolai Larsen]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

[Smalleyster]

About 6 years ago I screwed up while filling out an online banking payment form to State Farm. I accidentally put my address in the slot where I was supposed to put theirs. A few days later I got a check in the mail drawn on MY bank account to State Farm. That's when I stopped doing online payments from banks in the USA. No wonder they took so long to clear.

[epetroel]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

Same thing here.  Been waiting 3 days, and no response yet from support to my e-mails.

[Smalleyster]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

Same thing here.  Been waiting 3 days, and no response yet from support to my e-mails.

Here we go again. Sheesh!

[epetroel]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

Same thing here.  Been waiting 3 days, and no response yet from support to my e-mails.

Here we go again. Sheesh!

I'm sure they'll figure it out, and it doesn't really bother me that much, but I just wish there was better communication if they know that deposits/withdrawls are going to be delayed.

[Nicolai Larsen]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

Same thing here.  Been waiting 3 days, and no response yet from support to my e-mails.

Here we go again. Sheesh!

I'm sure they'll figure it out, and it doesn't really bother me that much, but I just wish there was better communication if they know that deposits/withdrawls are going to be delayed.

That's just what 'm looking for.

Let me know if there's delays or warn me before hand.

The money is just locked now from being used...

[cottoneyeJoe]

I'm also noticing VERY long waits for both deposits and withdrawals from TradeHill via Paxum.

36+ hours for a deposit a couple of days ago and now waiting 30+ hours for a withdrawal. Very disappointing and not getting any clear info from TH support is even more frustrating.

MtGox paxum transfers have taken a little as an hour and never more than 4 hours. Dwolla seems even faster with MtGox and CampBx.

Has there been a credible explanation on why the other exchanges seem fine continuing with Dwolla while TH abruptly abandoned it even for withdrawals? I know they claimed some reversals happened but now that Dwolla requests ID verification, wouldnt that issue be a thing of the past, at least as far as having recourse if the same scam were attempted?

Perhaps TH's handling of the situation has burned some bridge with Dwolla?

[CubedRoot]

Ive stopped using Tradehill and moved back to mt.gox and campbx. Theres to many other good and fully functioning exchanges that allow Dwolla withdrawals to be mucking about with Tradehill

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Been waiting for a Paxum withdrawal for 2 days now, when it says it only takes up to 24 hours...

Same thing here.  Been waiting 3 days, and no response yet from support to my e-mails.

Here we go again. Sheesh!

I'm sure they'll figure it out, and it doesn't really bother me that much, but I just wish there was better communication if they know that deposits/withdrawls are going to be delayed.

That's just what 'm looking for.

Let me know if there's delays or warn me before hand.

The money is just locked now from being used...

 I've set up another account with a different bank. We've been really clear about what Bitcoin is and are establishing relationships with the banks. Most banks want absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin so it's somewhat of a challenge but if we have several banks that understand what we're doing in the long run we shouldn't run in to these problems. Most likely I'll have another 2 banks online Monday as well.  

By far the the most difficult problem at this point is bridging Bitcoin with conventional finance and reversible payment systems.

We're sending some more funds up north to Paxum to replenish the account. We've received a lot of demand and people who want to use Paxum. As soon as that wire hits we'll disperse it to people who are waiting. I want to apologize for the delay.

Jered

[Bigpiggy01]

Jered,

Can we take your last comment as meaning that all outstanding Paxum withdrawals including EURO should clear Monday-Tuesday?