Bitcoin crashes when those investing realise 2 things

[BittBurger]

The fact that you own 1 BTC and that is equivalent to owning 100,000,000 sub-units is EXACTLY why people are so excited.

Exactly.  Because right now people are buying WHOLE bitcoins.  
When the masses get inolved, they will only be able to afford 0.0001 BTC ....
Making mister smartypants with 50 whole BTC's insanely rich.
Why would he cash out and cause the system to crash?   He is mister smartypants now.
He will be that much more rich because of the divisibility and the insane cost for just 1.0 BTC ...  of which he has several.

As with *every* person who trash talks BTC, the OP hasn't understood BTC at all.

[revans]

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

[revans]

Where's that "not sure if trolling or just stupid pic"?

Divisibility doesn't reduce anyone's holdings. Control of 1 BTC is currently control off 100m satoshis. Increase divisibility by a million, and that same 1 BTC represents control of 100 trillion satoshis. It's all about percentages.

FYI, rational people quickly realize that extreme divisibility is a huge plus and a core property of ideal money.

Right, and you don't think some people might have issue with the value if an individual Bitcoin is sudden altered to be worth 100x or 1000x as many sub units? How is this any different from the currency debasement you bemoan in state fiat?

Because the percentage you control is the same!

Ah, here it is:

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions. Goods priced in Bitcoins would obviously adjust, but there would be a period in which the imbalance would leave those with whole Bitcoins with a massive increase in purchasing power.

[MaxBTC1]

Thanks for the chuckle OP

[Missionary]

Just trolling. Nothing to see here.

[notme]

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

So dollars are limited to a certain number of dollar units?  That makes this hard to explain:

[revans]

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.


Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

[revans]

Knowing that a dollar bill can be divided into 100 pennies does not change my opinion of dollars.

And what if it was decided one day that it could be divided into 1000?

Dividing a dollar into 1000 (or even 1,000,000) is not the same thing as debasement. Not the same thing at all. Just think about it for a while.

No, but for the sake of argument we are assuming that the dollar is like Bitcoin and limited to a certain number of dollar units.

So dollars are limited to a certain number of dollar units?  That makes this hard to explain:

So, would your criticism of the dollar be made moot if a superdollar was created which was worth say 1 million normal dollars?

[alincoln]

The problem is, everyone agrees that half a pie will satisfy only half of your hunger.

Bitcoin, however, is totally abstract, it's mathematics. The division is, thus, arbitrary. In the long term, adding more decimals will really make people wonder how many "accounting units" are in the system: if the original 21 million or the actual number of satoshis.

Please note I am all bullish on Bitcoin but the thesis that adding more decimals can lead to a flash crash should not be rapidly dismissed.

[Bitcopia]

revans,

Thanks for all the laughs  

Take a few days to reflect on your argument before you keep posting...

[revans]

revans,

Thanks for all the laughs  

Take a few days to reflect on your argument before you keep posting...

My argument as now revealed is solid, I await a reply from anyone brave enough to take it on.

[revans]

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.


Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

I already did earlier in this thread. The Fed is making new pies out of thin air and selling them to the market for full price. After they've sold, there is more pie available and your pie is worth less.

With the bitcoin example, we both have the same amount of pie relative to the total amount of pie. We can just use smaller slices.

With the dollar example, we both have less pie relative to the total amount of pie. It doesn't much matter how we slice it, we lost value.

But that isn't true at all is it? Bitcoin is heavily marketed on the basis of 21 million total units, how do you think the market will react one trades start taking place in fractions of a Bitcoin? Or how about when the number sub units allowed is increased? Like I said if the Fed invented a superdollar worth 1  million or 1 billion dollars, would that allay the criticism? If not, why not?

[alincoln]

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.


Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

I already did earlier in this thread. The Fed is making new pies out of thin air and selling them to the market for full price. After they've sold, there is more pie available and your pie is worth less.

With the bitcoin example, we both have the same amount of pie relative to the total amount of pie. We can just use smaller slices.

With the dollar example, we both have less pie relative to the total amount of pie. It doesn't much matter how we slice it, we lost value.

But that isn't true at all is it? Bitcoin is heavily marketed on the basis of 21 million total units, how do you think the market will react one trades start taking place in fractions of a Bitcoin? Or how about when the number sub units allowed is increased? Like I said if the Fed invented a superdollar worth 1  million or 1 billion dollars, would that allay the criticism? If not, why not?

Yes, but I am wondering if we aren't gradually migrating to a world where the satoshi is the common accounting unit, with "one Bitcoin" becoming less and less relevant for real operations. If Bitcoin really skyrockets, it'll make much more sense to think day to day operations in terms of the smallest available division, whose values will be comparable to the dollar. From that atomic unit, one could understand the network as being composed of 21x10^N of such units. In this sense, creating further divisions and increasing N has the same effect of devaluing the currency.

It's a matter of point of view, and points of view can change over time.

[djalexr]

I hope he's winding everyone up...sadly though there are people that stupid in the world!

[Melbustus]

Where's that "not sure if trolling or just stupid pic"?

Divisibility doesn't reduce anyone's holdings. Control of 1 BTC is currently control off 100m satoshis. Increase divisibility by a million, and that same 1 BTC represents control of 100 trillion satoshis. It's all about percentages.

FYI, rational people quickly realize that extreme divisibility is a huge plus and a core property of ideal money.

Right, and you don't think some people might have issue with the value if an individual Bitcoin is sudden altered to be worth 100x or 1000x as many sub units? How is this any different from the currency debasement you bemoan in state fiat?

Because the percentage you control is the same!

Ah, here it is:

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions. Goods priced in Bitcoins would obviously adjust, but there would be a period in which the imbalance would leave those with whole Bitcoins with a massive increase in purchasing power.

Why is it so hard for you to think in percentages? Are you Maria Bartiromo?

Increasing bitcoin's divisibility would not change the percentage ownership of the money base represented by anyone's existing holdings (as basically everyone in this thread has painstakingly tried to point out to you, even with examples). Prices would not have to adjust! Everything stays exactly the same, except that more *precision* in pricing is now possible for really cheap goods.

[BittBurger]

revans trolls anti-bitcoin gibberish on this forum all the time.  Just look at his posting history.

Revans I'd like to call attention to your fabulous prediction in May 2013 regarding the price of bitcoin:

"Some people are working really hard to push the price back up to $90. I expect a bloodbath when MtGox resumes trading, could be down to sub $5 this time tomorrow."



Your pearls of wisdom

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Because the percentage you control is the same!

The dumbness is strong with this one.
Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Actually Melbustus is one of the smarter chaps around here.  You on the other hand seem to be a self-righteous twat.
Normally if somebody didn't understand a concept, I would try to explain it to them.  However, others have already tried to do that (see excellently written out pie example by holliday), but you just call them idiots and insist that you are right.  Therefore, you have earned my "douchebag of the day" award, which comes with a life-time of ignore.

[rampantparanoia]

Because the percentage you control is the same!

The dumbness is strong with this one.
Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Actually Melbustus is one of the smarter chaps around here.  You on the other hand seem to be a self-righteous twat.
Normally if somebody didn't understand a concept, I would try to explain it to them.  However, others have already tried to do that (see excellently written out pie example by holliday), but you just call them idiots and insist that you are right.  Therefore, you have earned my "douchebag of the day" award, which comes with a life-time of ignore.

lol, i knew this thread would be full of pwnys and wins.

[deadweasel]

Because the percentage you control is the same!

The dumbness is strong with this one.
Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Actually Melbustus is one of the smarter chaps around here.  You on the other hand seem to be a self-righteous twat.
Normally if somebody didn't understand a concept, I would try to explain it to them.  However, others have already tried to do that (see excellently written out pie example by holliday), but you just call them idiots and insist that you are right.  Therefore, you have earned my "douchebag of the day" award, which comes with a life-time of ignore.

+1

[revans]

The dumbness is strong with this one.

Let me explain, as you clearly aren't smart enogh to grasp the idea yourself.

Bitcoin cultists talk of individual Bitcoins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars eventually,  which would mean very few people would ever own a whole Bitcoin and so would see their Bitcoin wealth expressed as sub units of a Bitcoin. Now let's say that it is decided that instead of 100M, that a bitcoin can now be divided into 1 billion sub units. As a result those people who hold any number of whole Bitcoins can buy 10x as much Bitcoin wealth from those who only have Bitcoin fractions.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 4 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 2 slices.

We decide that instead of 4 slices per pie, we are going to cut them smaller and make 8 slices per pie.

You have a whole pie. It's cut into 8 slices.

I have half a pie. It's cut the same as yours, so I have 4 slices.

What are you on about? We both still have the same fucking amount of pie!

Excellent.


Now explain to me how the US Dollar is debased compared to Bitcoin on this basis.

I already did earlier in this thread. The Fed is making new pies out of thin air and selling them to the market for full price. After they've sold, there is more pie available and your pie is worth less.

With the bitcoin example, we both have the same amount of pie relative to the total amount of pie. We can just use smaller slices.

With the dollar example, we both have less pie relative to the total amount of pie. It doesn't much matter how we slice it, we lost value.

But that isn't true at all is it? Bitcoin is heavily marketed on the basis of 21 million total units, how do you think the market will react one trades start taking place in fractions of a Bitcoin? Or how about when the number sub units allowed is increased? Like I said if the Fed invented a superdollar worth 1  million or 1 billion dollars, would that allay the criticism? If not, why not?

There are 21 million bitcoins. There are 2.1 quadrillion satoshis. If we divide it further, those numbers will not change. There will be new units worth less than a satoshi.

The market already trades in fractions of a bitcoin.

If the fed invents a superdollar, who cares as long as they remove a corresponding number of regular dollars? Yet, they won't. They will create a super dollar on top of all the already existing dollars and spend it at the value of the previously existing dollars. This inflation (monetary) will dilute the value of all the previous existing dollars! Only the initial spender (the Fed) gets full value, everyone else just gets screwed.

I'm starting to think your ignorance is willful.

Bitcoins are just ledger values. For clarity i will ask again as I want to be sure you are a stupid as I suspect.

You see no issue with more potential ledger values being created on the basis of a Russian doll style fractionisation of existing Bitcoin subunits?