CoinValidation , will it work? The way to "sanitize" bitcoin !

[xan_The_Dragon]

wait when did walmart announce they were accepting bitcoin?

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[niothor]

wait when did walmart announce they were accepting bitcoin?

And I see a way it might actually work , but first let's assume those guys have a plan , and they have an ace in their hand.
Something like a big company wanting to start accepting bitcoins but concerned about the mess around it.

I wouldn't be here on the forum but rather drunk already if that were the case.

[franky1]

And I have that BIGGGG feeling I'm missing something right?

correct

first thing. coinvalidation are just a business. they are not government. they are simply business advisers trying to help bitcoin BUSINESSES to comply with the regulations.

second thing regulations only apply to businesses that deal in the FIAT side of things. EG. exchanges, businesses converting to fiat for supplies, wages and tax purposes.

third thing. as it says in the PDF on coin validation site for end users. they are not asking for end users information.

take this as the example....
coinvalidation talks to bitstamp, ensures they have a policy that covers all of the FIAT exchanging policies. EG the wire transfer regulations of $1000 requiring AMLKYC if done in a short period or $10k over a year.(allowing bitstamp to lower daily limits and yearly limits to reduce personal risk) to be on the look out for transactions that are obviously linked to a crime. EG 1 TXID hop away from a silk road address..

they then accredit bitstamp as being a clean legit and compliant business to be listed in their database. all bitstamp withdrawal pubkeys are then treated as clean.(meaning the addresses where bitstamp hold the private key)

now then imagine alpaca socks shop see's a TXID that can be coinverified as coming from bitstamp. and another TXID showing a 1 hop taint from a known silk road withdrawal address.. alpaca socks will probably accept them both, as they are for small amounts of funds..so not much risk, infact places like alpaca wont even use coinvalidation service due to the small transaction values.

now imagine a car showroom or real estate..they would accept the bitstamp clean TXID but not the silk road TXID.. and would use the coinvalidation service.

coin validation is not in the game of asking for driving licence information from EVERYONE.. all they ask is that the businesses that are accredited as clean and compliant on their database, are compliant. meaning bitstamp will ask for AMLKYC for customers wanting to withdraw FIAT above the daily limit.

this has been the regulations for years, concerning businesses dealing in large transactions. coinvalidation just want to be the offionado's to offer business advice and help businesses easily identify blackmarket known addresses.

this is not about putting users onto a santa's "naughty or nice" list. it is about knowing the origins of coins. EG if it was exchanged for fiat, if it was mined, if it was from a black market sell.

[niothor]

And I have that BIGGGG feeling I'm missing something right?

correct

first thing. coinvalidation are just a business. they are not government. they are simply business advisers trying to help bitcoin BUSINESSES to comply with the regulations.

second thing regulations only apply to businesses that deal in the FIAT side of things. EG. exchanges, businesses converting to fiat for supplies, wages and tax purposes.

third thing. as it says in the PDF on coin validation site for end users. they are not asking for end users information.

take this as the example....
coinvalidation talks to bitstamp, ensures they have a policy that covers all of the FIAT exchanging policies. EG the wire transfer regulations of $1000 requiring AMLKYC if done in a short period or $10k over a year.(allowing bitstamp to lower daily limits and yearly limits to reduce personal risk) to be on the look out for transactions that are obviously linked to a crime. EG 1 TXID hop away from a silk road address..

they then accredit bitstamp as being a clean legit and compliant business to be listed in their database. all bitstamp withdrawal pubkeys are then treated as clean.(meaning the addresses where bitstamp hold the private key)

now then imagine alpaca socks shop see's a TXID that can be coinverified as coming from bitstamp. and another TXID showing a 1 hop taint from a known silk road withdrawal address.. alpaca socks will probably accept them both, as they are for small amounts of funds..so not much risk, infact places like alpaca wont even use coinvalidation service due to the small transaction values.

now imagine a car showroom or real estate..they would accept the bitstamp clean TXID but not the silk road TXID.. and would use the coinvalidation service.

coin validation is not in the game of asking for driving licence information from EVERYONE.. all they ask is that the businesses that are accredited as clean and compliant on their database, are compliant. meaning bitstamp will ask for AMLKYC for customers wanting to withdraw FIAT above the daily limit.

this has been the regulations for years, concerning businesses dealing in large transactions. coinvalidation just want to be the offionado's to offer business advice and help businesses easily identify blackmarket known addresses.

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

[Littleshop]

......

The results will be something like:
-Walmart knows that you are a verified customers (they can have your id)
-People when exchanging bitcoins know that this guy has some verified papers.
-You know that you actually have some kind of ownership on that address and can prove in court that "You John , on 11/1/12013 sent to Michael 245 Bitcoins"

And on the surface everybody is happy , right?
People who don't want to enroll , are () not forced to enroll.

And I have that BIGGGG feeling I'm missing something right?

At that point I would switch to an alt coin that had no such mess.  This will not happen though.  In fact the US government would probably alter cash to be (more) track-able like with RFID before Bitcoin had a required centralized coin register. 

[franky1]

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

wrong.
government do not ask people to write their name and zipcode on every bank note they use. all they ask is businesses receiving large amounts or amounts from black listed entities to be refused service and/or report it.

banks later can check serial numbers and see that one day 2 years ago that bank note may have come from the whore house in las vegas. it wont show the identity of everyone using the coins in between, just the businesses that have been flagged up as illegit

the same applies to coinvalidation
they will have a database of complying businesses and hopefully find the addresses of atlantis/silkroad and other underground services. then shops can check to see if funds came from legit businesses, were mined or came RECENTLY from underground services. to access the risk of accepting the funds from individuals.

with al that said. coinvalidation will inevitably fail.
how simplewould it be to deposit BTC into a fully coinvalidation accredited exchange like bitstamp. not turn it into FIAT to withdraw. but allow it to be used as a mixer. then withdraw the BTC again to show as a clean TXID, to then put into another exchange for the purposes of converting to FIAT and then the coinvalidation service verifies funds came from bitstamp. allowing the FIAT funds to be withdrawn to a bank. the answer.. very simple.

as i said before places like alpaca socks wont bother with coinvalidation. but a real estate agent would, and just like any business doing deals over $£1000 in one go or over $£10,000 in ayear, expect them to do some checks and accept or reject the trade from proceeding.

[adamstgBit]

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

wrong.
government do not ask people to write their name and post code on every bank note they use. all they ask is businesses receiving large amounts or amounts from black listed entities to be refused service and/or reported.

banks can check serial numbers and see that one day 2 years ago that bank note may have come from the whore house in las vegas. it wont show the identity of everyone using the coins in between.

the same applies to coinvalidation
they will have a database of complying businesses and hopefully find the addresses of atlantis/silkroad and other underground services. then shops can check to see if funds came from legit businesses, were mined or came RECENTLY from underground services. to access the risk of accepting the funds

you mean the risk of accepting dirty bitcoin that will later be rejected by another business, thanks to your efforts.


i may not know exactly how this project will work and how it will initially effect users.
but the red flags are full on, and i'm not the only one seeing them.
maybe you'r to in love with your wonderful idea to see how destructive it could become.

[franky1]

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

wrong.
government do not ask people to write their name and post code on every bank note they use. all they ask is businesses receiving large amounts or amounts from black listed entities to be refused service and/or reported.

banks can check serial numbers and see that one day 2 years ago that bank note may have come from the whore house in las vegas. it wont show the identity of everyone using the coins in between.

the same applies to coinvalidation
they will have a database of complying businesses and hopefully find the addresses of atlantis/silkroad and other underground services. then shops can check to see if funds came from legit businesses, were mined or came RECENTLY from underground services. to access the risk of accepting the funds

you mean the risk of accepting dirty bitcoin that will later be rejected by another business, thanks to your efforts.


i may not know exactly how this project will work and how it will initially effect users.
but the red flags are full on, and i'm not the only one seeing them.
maybe you'r to in love with your wonderful idea to see how destructive it could become.

destructive?
coinvalidation is not government, they are business advisors.
it will only affect users who are silly enough to withdraw funds from a coinvalidated known blackmarket and directly put funds into a exchange to withdraw into fiat..

the service wont ask you to register all of YOUR pubkeys. it is purely a database for good and bad businesses. so there are many ways YOU can mix your coins before entering or exiting a market/business

[adamstgBit]

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

wrong.
government do not ask people to write their name and post code on every bank note they use. all they ask is businesses receiving large amounts or amounts from black listed entities to be refused service and/or reported.

banks can check serial numbers and see that one day 2 years ago that bank note may have come from the whore house in las vegas. it wont show the identity of everyone using the coins in between.

the same applies to coinvalidation
they will have a database of complying businesses and hopefully find the addresses of atlantis/silkroad and other underground services. then shops can check to see if funds came from legit businesses, were mined or came RECENTLY from underground services. to access the risk of accepting the funds

you mean the risk of accepting dirty bitcoin that will later be rejected by another business, thanks to your efforts.


i may not know exactly how this project will work and how it will initially effect users.
but the red flags are full on, and i'm not the only one seeing them.
maybe you'r to in love with your wonderful idea to see how destructive it could become.

destructive?
coinvalidation is not government, they are business advisors.
it will only affect users who are silly enough to withdraw funds from a coinvalidated known blackmarket and directly put funds into a exchange to withdraw into fiat..

the service wont ask you to register all of YOUR pubkeys. it is purely a database for good and bad businesses. so there are many ways YOU can mix your coins before entering or exiting a market/business

and if someone pays me from a coinvalidated known blackmarket, directly to my exchange wallet ( i  often have payment go directly to my ewallet )

what will happen to me? what will happen to my funds?

[adamstgBit]

eh eh eh, what happens then?

[bitbitcoincoin]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and fearful for Bitcoin's ability to survive long term.

Let's just remove every dollar that's ever been used for illegal activities from circulation, what's the worst that can happen? /s

[adamstgBit]

Why bother counting the coins , when they can go over individuals.
It's like a bank going to track all the papers bills I deposit instead of looking to my account withdraws and deposits.

Put a label on an address and attach it to a person. The the person is responsible how he spends the money. And how he gets it.
You receive money from unknown source?
1) give them back
2) use them which makes you guilty
It's already happening and this works with credit cards right? Why not with bitcoins.

I see the whole damns txid as a way to complicate everything.

Also this version defeats every mixing / dark wallet services.

wrong.
government do not ask people to write their name and post code on every bank note they use. all they ask is businesses receiving large amounts or amounts from black listed entities to be refused service and/or reported.

banks can check serial numbers and see that one day 2 years ago that bank note may have come from the whore house in las vegas. it wont show the identity of everyone using the coins in between.

the same applies to coinvalidation
they will have a database of complying businesses and hopefully find the addresses of atlantis/silkroad and other underground services. then shops can check to see if funds came from legit businesses, were mined or came RECENTLY from underground services. to access the risk of accepting the funds

you mean the risk of accepting dirty bitcoin that will later be rejected by another business, thanks to your efforts.


i may not know exactly how this project will work and how it will initially effect users.
but the red flags are full on, and i'm not the only one seeing them.
maybe you'r to in love with your wonderful idea to see how destructive it could become.

destructive?
coinvalidation is not government, they are business advisors.
it will only affect users who are silly enough to withdraw funds from a coinvalidated known blackmarket and directly put funds into a exchange to withdraw into fiat..

the service wont ask you to register all of YOUR pubkeys. it is purely a database for good and bad businesses. so there are many ways YOU can mix your coins before entering or exiting a market/business

and if someone pays me from a coinvalidated known blackmarket, directly to my exchange wallet ( i  often have payment go directly to my ewallet )

what will happen to me? what will happen to my funds?

please answer me.

[cypherdoc]

I kind of see their point, and what they are trying to do. To be fair, their sales pitch will probably go a long way towards making bitcoin acceptable in the big-brothers perspective, and thus, us much more rich.

this is so naive.

[Carlton Banks]

Significant security issue for all greenlist addresses, funds can be more easily stolen the more often an address is re-used. This is all cryptographic stuff, but the more technical minded people here on Bitcointalk always make this point when discussing re-using addresses.

Money can be more easily stolen from all greenlist addresses.

[hermann1983]

So , Walmart is announcing:
 "We accept bitcoins""From cointrusted addresses only"

What happens if you send coins from not cointrusted addresses ?

Returned or confiscated ?

[niothor]

So , Walmart is announcing:
 "We accept bitcoins""From cointrusted addresses only"

What happens if you send coins from not cointrusted addresses ?

Returned or confiscated ?

It's like going to the electric , gas  company or whatever and telling them ... i left a few dollar bills by your door yesterday , did you get them?
How can you prove that you indeed have sent those bitcoins ?

[DeeSome]

So , Walmart is announcing:
 "We accept bitcoins""From cointrusted addresses only"

What happens if you send coins from not cointrusted addresses ?

Returned or confiscated ?

Probably become unspendable unless you send them to some government backed company who will accept and wash the coins in return for a fat percentage (tax) and of course lots of proof of ID.

[Feri22]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and fearful for Bitcoin's ability to survive long term.

Exactly my feeling too...

[Feri22]

...or they just use dollars.

If businesses will accept this STUPID idea, for example McDonald etc....i am sorry, but this will be end of bitcoin because you will have not single store whereyou can use it as now

Why will it kill bitcoin?
Most people will get a bitcoin trusted address like they do now with paypal or a cc card and get over it.
All the advantages bitcoin was suppose to have (small fees , easy to use , fast trasactions) are going to be forgotten because the merchants request an id in order to buy from them?

The ones who don't want it... they don't want it and that's it. Nothing you can do about it.


If McDonalds embraces this idea i bet that in 1 month we'll have at least 20k verified addresses.

It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing. If I understand this right...Let's say you are in the world, where BTC is 1# currency and the blacklisting/redlisting or whatever is working...you are in the country where prostitution / drugs are illegal (almost all countries in world). Now tell me one thing...how are you gonna pay? Sure you wouldn't pay with bitcoins (all prostitution and drug  bitcoins and adresses would be blacklisted, right?), would you? Because if in any time in future the prostitute or drug dealer will be caught, they will track the bitcoins to you...And you know what? How the tv show character Walter White said in the Breaking Bad...."Do you really wanna live in a world without Coca-Cola?"... i don't...

I am not saying, that i approve drugs or prostitution...no, but people should have their own choice to decide if they want to make stupid things or not...that is a life...

Nobody can track dollar bills, if there would be some way, they would already track it...bitcoin bring this possibility to the governments.....so if this will happen, our freedom will be smaller than it is now and privacy? In few years, there will be no such thing as a privacy...

So after all, when bitcoins will "win" the battle for #1 currency,  in exchange for our financial freedom and privacy...i think many people would say: You remember the dollar? Yeah man, good old times....

I don't know, i am just thinking something like this surely can destroy bitcoin and the sooner you will get it, the sooner we can take some actions against it as a community, together...

[niothor]

...or they just use dollars.

If businesses will accept this STUPID idea, for example McDonald etc....i am sorry, but this will be end of bitcoin because you will have not single store whereyou can use it as now

Why will it kill bitcoin?
Most people will get a bitcoin trusted address like they do now with paypal or a cc card and get over it.
All the advantages bitcoin was suppose to have (small fees , easy to use , fast trasactions) are going to be forgotten because the merchants request an id in order to buy from them?

The ones who don't want it... they don't want it and that's it. Nothing you can do about it.


If McDonalds embraces this idea i bet that in 1 month we'll have at least 20k verified addresses.

It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing. If I understand this right...Let's say you are in the world, where BTC is 1# currency and the blacklisting/redlisting or whatever is working...you are in the country where prostitution / drugs are illegal (almost all countries in world). Now tell me one thing...how are you gonna pay? Sure you wouldn't pay with bitcoins (all prostitution and drug  bitcoins and adresses would be blacklisted, right?), would you? Because if in any time in future the prostitute or drug dealer will be caught, they will track the bitcoins to you...And you know what? How the tv show character Walter White said in the Breaking Bad...."Do you really wanna live in a world without Coca-Cola?"... i don't...

I am not saying, that i approve drugs or prostitution...no, but people should have their own choice to decide if they want to make stupid things or not...that is a life...

Nobody can track dollar bills, if there would be some way, they would already track it...bitcoin bring this possibility to the governments.....so if this will happen, our freedom will be smaller than it is now and privacy? In few years, there will be no such thing as a privacy...

So after all, when bitcoins will "win" the battle for #1 currency,  in exchange for our financial freedom and privacy...i think many people would say: You remember the dollar? Yeah man, good old times....

I don't know, i am just thinking something like this surely can destroy bitcoin and the sooner you will get it, the sooner we can take some actions against it as a community, together...

What did you smoke?
You're seeing as a problem that people can't do anything illegal?

Well , let me give you another example , maybe you realize what stupidity you just said:
Control chips are installed on birth and the first thing people are scared of is :
"I can't kill my neighbor anymore"