franky1
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November 14, 2013, 09:00:19 PM |
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and if someone pays me from a coinvalidated known blackmarket, directly to my exchange wallet ( i often have payment go directly to my ewallet )
what will happen to me? what will happen to my funds?
remember coinvalidation is just a business advisory service with a database. Compliant exchanges are just businesses that have to monitor for serious crime transactions (large FIAT transactions that are linked to serious crimes) they themselves cannot "freeze" funds. only a bank or a court order can.infact if you were being investigated you would not know about it. this is the whole "it will take 3-5 business days" bit. giving the exchange a few hours or days to check you out before sending the funds onto the bank and your bank having a few hours or days for their own compliance checks. within the 3-5 day window. some businesses to avoid risk of being penalised, headaches of looking at certain transactions, and avoid headaches of paperwork have the right to refuse service to any customer they please as long as it has been done before the transaction is processed.. although this would be bad for business. its the same as alcohol laws.. the law is simple dont sell to underage. but the shop can reduce its own risks by making a policy to refuse service to anyone that looks young that fails to provide ID. EG 'challege 21', 'challenge 25' its worth reading the regulations of your country instead of asking other peoples opinions, they are not that hard to find. as although most developed countries are the same, there are some small variances in a few details. but the general rule of this scenario affecting the USA is: US customers transacting over $10k need AMLKYC info, US customers that have revealed information that their funds are 100% crime related will have their info passed onto fincen. and may find out later that their bank has frozen their funds.. thers more but go read it for yourselves. the exchange cannot freeze funds. but they can without explaining why, refuse the customer and ban them (again this is bad for business, but they can do it, if given sufficient information before hand to prevent the transaction occuring.) so i cant tell you what policy alpaca socks or bitstamp may create if they used coinvalidation as advisors. as half of it is the businesses own risk prevention, which goes above the law. the main question to ask is why woud you want to highlight yourself as a high risk by doing large payments knowingly from illegally obtained funds. if lets say you done a $10k FIAT withdrawal and maybe $20-$100 was from others who were stupid enough to send directly from silk road to you, then : 1) slap them across the face with a wet fish for being foolish and not mixing before risking YOUR funds 2) dont worry too much, as small amounts VS YOUR larger clean funds will dilute risk. but lets say all of the $10k came directly from silk road... slap yourself across the face with a wet fish... |
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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adamstgBit
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Merit: 1037
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November 14, 2013, 09:33:06 PM |
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and if someone pays me from a coinvalidated known blackmarket, directly to my exchange wallet ( i often have payment go directly to my ewallet )
what will happen to me? what will happen to my funds?
remember coinvalidation is just a business advisory service with a database. Compliant exchanges are just businesses that have to monitor for serious crime transactions (large FIAT transactions that are linked to serious crimes) they themselves cannot "freeze" funds. only a bank or a court order can.infact if you were being investigated you would not know about it. this is the whole "it will take 3-5 business days" bit. giving the exchange a few hours or days to check you out before sending the funds onto the bank and your bank having a few hours or days for their own compliance checks. within the 3-5 day window. some businesses to avoid risk of being penalised, headaches of looking at certain transactions, and avoid headaches of paperwork have the right to refuse service to any customer they please as long as it has been done before the transaction is processed.. although this would be bad for business. its the same as alcohol laws.. the law is simple dont sell to underage. but the shop can reduce its own risks by making a policy to refuse service to anyone that looks young that fails to provide ID. EG 'challege 21', 'challenge 25' its worth reading the regulations of your country instead of asking other peoples opinions, they are not that hard to find. as although most developed countries are the same, there are some small variances in a few details. but the general rule of this scenario affecting the USA is: US customers transacting over $10k need AMLKYC info, US customers that have revealed information that their funds are 100% crime related will have their info passed onto fincen. and may find out later that their bank has frozen their funds.. thers more but go read it for yourselves. the exchange cannot freeze funds. but they can without explaining why, refuse the customer and ban them (again this is bad for business, but they can do it, if given sufficient information before hand to prevent the transaction occuring.) so i cant tell you what policy alpaca socks or bitstamp may create if they used coinvalidation as advisors. as half of it is the businesses own risk prevention, which goes above the law. the main question to ask is why woud you want to highlight yourself as a high risk by doing large payments knowingly from illegally obtained funds.if lets say you done a $10k FIAT withdrawal and maybe $20-$100 was from others who were stupid enough to send directly from silk road to you, then : 1) slap them across the face with a wet fish for being foolish and not mixing before risking YOUR funds 2) dont worry too much, as small amounts VS YOUR larger clean funds will dilute risk. but lets say all of the $10k came directly from silk road... slap yourself across the face with a wet fish... LOL! I knew that would be your answer. k anyway, the main question to ask is why would you want to highlight yourself as a high risk by doing large payments knowingly from illegally obtained funds. I have no way of knowing if the coins come from illegally obtained funds.... i do not know my customers very well, and i dont want to, these are 50$ tx's we are talking about... 2) dont worry too much, as small amounts VS YOUR larger clean funds will dilute risk. WHAT?  ? i read " don't worry if you get paid in tainted coins you seem to have plenty of clean ones you can actually spend in your stash " the exchange cannot freeze funds. but they can without explaining why, refuse the customer and ban them thats the F'in problem, if i get paid in tinted coins, how will i know? will i be able to sell these coins at the exchange? the bottom line: suddenly taking bitcoin payments from random people is risky. the sad truth: this makes bitcoin worthless. |
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Feri22
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November 14, 2013, 09:59:21 PM
Last edit: November 14, 2013, 10:35:11 PM by Feri22 |
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...or they just use dollars.
If businesses will accept this STUPID idea, for example McDonald etc....i am sorry, but this will be end of bitcoin because you will have not single store whereyou can use it as now
Why will it kill bitcoin? Most people will get a bitcoin trusted address like they do now with paypal or a cc card and get over it. All the advantages bitcoin was suppose to have (small fees , easy to use , fast trasactions) are going to be forgotten because the merchants request an id in order to buy from them? The ones who don't want it... they don't want it and that's it. Nothing you can do about it. If McDonalds embraces this idea i bet that in 1 month we'll have at least 20k verified addresses. It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing. If I understand this right...Let's say you are in the world, where BTC is 1# currency and the blacklisting/redlisting or whatever is working...you are in the country where prostitution / drugs are illegal (almost all countries in world). Now tell me one thing...how are you gonna pay? Sure you wouldn't pay with bitcoins (all prostitution and drug bitcoins and adresses would be blacklisted, right?), would you? Because if in any time in future the prostitute or drug dealer will be caught, they will track the bitcoins to you...And you know what? How the tv show character Walter White said in the Breaking Bad.... "Do you really wanna live in a world without Coca-Cola?"... i don't... I am not saying, that i approve drugs or prostitution...no, but people should have their own choice to decide if they want to make stupid things or not...that is a life... Nobody can track dollar bills, if there would be some way, they would already track it...bitcoin bring this possibility to the governments.....so if this will happen, our freedom will be smaller than it is now and privacy? In few years, there will be no such thing as a privacy... So after all, when bitcoins will "win" the battle for #1 currency, in exchange for our financial freedom and privacy...i think many people would say: You remember the dollar? Yeah man, good old times....  I don't know, i am just thinking something like this surely can destroy bitcoin and the sooner you will get it, the sooner we can take some actions against it as a community, together... What did you smoke? You're seeing as a problem that people can't do anything illegal? Well , let me give you another example , maybe you realize what stupidity you just said: Control chips are installed on birth and the first thing people are scared of is : "I can't kill my neighbor anymore" First...Thanks to bitcoin, I smoke Cohiba Behike  what do you smoke? ..Second, I wrote: "It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing." It didn't show you what you are missing here and you didn't understand it at all so better read posts from other members, maybe than you will get it, but basically i wrote the same, i was just hoping you will see the problem here in this scenario, but from your posts i have that feeling we both are living in two different worlds so let's just agree to disagree... EDIT: Prostitution and buying weed in Netherland is legal....your "can't kill neighbor anymore" example is stupidity for me, because it is not the same and exactly because you don't get this, that its not the same, you are not understanding my point above....we are living in two different worlds...I want the freedom to decide, you obviously don't...  |
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niothor (OP)
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November 14, 2013, 10:43:24 PM |
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...or they just use dollars.
If businesses will accept this STUPID idea, for example McDonald etc....i am sorry, but this will be end of bitcoin because you will have not single store whereyou can use it as now
Why will it kill bitcoin? Most people will get a bitcoin trusted address like they do now with paypal or a cc card and get over it. All the advantages bitcoin was suppose to have (small fees , easy to use , fast trasactions) are going to be forgotten because the merchants request an id in order to buy from them? The ones who don't want it... they don't want it and that's it. Nothing you can do about it. If McDonalds embraces this idea i bet that in 1 month we'll have at least 20k verified addresses. It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing. If I understand this right...Let's say you are in the world, where BTC is 1# currency and the blacklisting/redlisting or whatever is working...you are in the country where prostitution / drugs are illegal (almost all countries in world). Now tell me one thing...how are you gonna pay? Sure you wouldn't pay with bitcoins (all prostitution and drug bitcoins and adresses would be blacklisted, right?), would you? Because if in any time in future the prostitute or drug dealer will be caught, they will track the bitcoins to you...And you know what? How the tv show character Walter White said in the Breaking Bad.... "Do you really wanna live in a world without Coca-Cola?"... i don't... I am not saying, that i approve drugs or prostitution...no, but people should have their own choice to decide if they want to make stupid things or not...that is a life... Nobody can track dollar bills, if there would be some way, they would already track it...bitcoin bring this possibility to the governments.....so if this will happen, our freedom will be smaller than it is now and privacy? In few years, there will be no such thing as a privacy... So after all, when bitcoins will "win" the battle for #1 currency, in exchange for our financial freedom and privacy...i think many people would say: You remember the dollar? Yeah man, good old times.... I don't know, i am just thinking something like this surely can destroy bitcoin and the sooner you will get it, the sooner we can take some actions against it as a community, together... What did you smoke? You're seeing as a problem that people can't do anything illegal? Well , let me give you another example , maybe you realize what stupidity you just said: Control chips are installed on birth and the first thing people are scared of is : "I can't kill my neighbor anymore" First...Thanks to bitcoin, I smoke Cohiba Behike what do you smoke? ..Second, I wrote: "It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing." It didn't show you what you are missing here and you didn't understand it at all so better read posts from other members, maybe than you will get it, but basically i wrote the same, i was just hoping you will see the problem here in this scenario, but from your posts i have that feeling we both are living in two different worlds so let's just agree to disagree... EDIT: Prostitution and buying weed in Netherland is legal....your "can't kill neighbor anymore" example is stupidity for me, because it is not the same and exactly because you don't get this, that its not the same, you are not understanding my point above....we are living in two different worlds...I want the freedom to decide, you obviously don't... Can you pay in a weed shop in Netherlands or in a brothel with a visa card issued in France? |
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franky1
Legendary
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Activity: 4200
Merit: 4447
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November 15, 2013, 12:41:02 AM
Last edit: November 15, 2013, 12:56:20 AM by franky1 |
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the bottom line:
suddenly taking bitcoin payments from random people is risky.
the sad truth:
this makes bitcoin worthless.
now we have got passed the fact that coinvalidation is not a personal identifier of every user (todays hysteria) and moved onto the deeper topic of the actual risk.. then yes using an american exchange * to directly withdraw FIAT, and not mixing your coins first would be a risk. thats why there is always localbitcoins.com or other exchanges that have not used coinvalidations services. or as mentioned, putting coins into an exchange * not converting to fiat (avoid triggering any FIAT regulation checks). then wait a few minutes and withdraw the bitcoin so it shows as fresh from a regulated exchange(abusing the first exchange as a mixer/validating service). and then put into another exchange* to then transfer to fiat. which will trigger the checks and see the coins have come from a valid exchage just 1 hop ago. * that volunteered to use coinvalidations services but this is a headache to do for some. but inevitably apart from ensuring that exchanges learn how to handle the US Dollar legally. the database part of coinvalidation will become the useless part, because everyone will be mixing and hopping transactions around certified businesses before finally triggering the FIAT checks. thus coinvalidation will end up just being compliance advisors without the database. im more concerned with mike hearns brainfart of tainting actual coins eg coinvalidation would allow checks to show that maybe at onetime my coin 35 hops back was in a silk road pubkey. if i moved it through 50 of my own addresses it becomes 85 hops, thus making it beleivable that it passed through 85 different people before going into an exchange. meaning low risk. mike hearns idea. "this coin is red-listed who are you". pass it through 50 of my addresses.. "this coin is red-listed, who are you" no matter how many bunny hops the coin moves until valid ID is given the coin remains red-listed. the ONLY option would be to put it into a mixer that doesnt request ID and hope the coin you withdraw is not someone elses red-listed coin. eventually all coins, once circulated enough would touch a black market at one point or another. making them all red-listed |
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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adamstgBit
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
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November 15, 2013, 12:47:04 AM |
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the bottom line:
suddenly taking bitcoin payments from random people is risky.
the sad truth:
this makes bitcoin worthless.
now we have got passed the fact that coinvalidation is not a personal identifier of every user (todays hysteria) and moved onto the deeper topic of the actual risk.. then yes using an american exchange that volunteered to use coinvalidations services to directly withdraw FIAT, and not mixing your coins first would be a risk. thats why there is always localbitcoins.com or other exchanges that have not used coinvalidations services. or as mentioned, putting coins into an exchange (not converting to fiat to not trigger any FIAT regulation checks(mixer)) withdraw the coin so it shows as fresh from a regulated exchange. and then put into another regulated exchange to then transfer to fiat. but this is a headache to do for some. but inevitably apart from ensuring that exchanges learn how to handle the US Dollar legally. coinvalidation database will become the useless part, because everyone will be mixing and hopping transactions around certified businesses before finally triggering the FIAT checks. im more concerned with mike hearns brainfart of tainting actual coins i was thinking tainting coins was just a function of coin validation. wtv both are unnecessary and uselessness, and therefore harmful. |
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hazek
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Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
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November 15, 2013, 06:44:57 AM |
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OP, you can't have a whitelisted Bitcoin addresses only policy because you can't block people from sending you bitcoins. Anyone can send any bitcoins to you as long as there are some miners out there who will confirm any transaction. So what does Wallmart do then? Just take those bitcoins and steals them? Not to mention that you can't guarantee the address to which someone verified withdrew their coins is actually under their control... What if the verified person withdrew to an address of a friend? or a customer?
It's an infeasible, stupid and bad idea, period.
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My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)
If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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niothor (OP)
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November 15, 2013, 07:07:32 AM |
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OP, you can't have a whitelisted Bitcoin addresses only policy because you can't block people from sending you bitcoins. Anyone can send any bitcoins to you as long as there are some miners out there who will confirm any transaction. So what does Wallmart do then? Just take those bitcoins and steals them? Not to mention that you can't guarantee the address to which someone verified withdrew their coins is actually under their control... What if the verified person withdrew to an address of a friend? or a customer?
It's an infeasible, stupid and bad idea, period.
First thing you all that read this thread have to take into account is that I DO NOT SUPPORT IT! I just whant to figure out a way it might work. Now Same is with cc cards , i can send you any amount I want , just go in a bank sprout a card number and here your go. And honestly I don't have a clue what happens next according to the law. |
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niothor (OP)
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November 15, 2013, 07:39:25 AM |
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Well , at least I can say your account is quite interesting before I switch to reading the link. |
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WillBit
Newbie
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Activity: 56
Merit: 0
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November 15, 2013, 09:02:26 AM |
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juve4v
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November 15, 2013, 10:06:15 AM |
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This stands against bitcoin and the idea envisaged by Satoshi.
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Coinseeker
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November 15, 2013, 10:10:49 AM |
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This stands against bitcoin and the idea envisaged by Satoshi.
Satoshi abandoned this experiment long ago. Maybe he's the smart one. |
If your ignore button isn't glowing, you're doing it wrong.
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niothor (OP)
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November 15, 2013, 10:14:34 AM |
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This stands against bitcoin and the idea envisaged by Satoshi.
Satoshi abandoned this experiment long ago. Maybe he's the smart one. Or his mortgage rates grew , and he changed his name to <insert the person you hate most here> and started the bitcoin foundation.  |
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Piper67
Legendary
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Activity: 1106
Merit: 1001
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November 15, 2013, 01:28:52 PM |
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OP, you can't have a whitelisted Bitcoin addresses only policy because you can't block people from sending you bitcoins. Anyone can send any bitcoins to you as long as there are some miners out there who will confirm any transaction. So what does Wallmart do then? Just take those bitcoins and steals them? Not to mention that you can't guarantee the address to which someone verified withdrew their coins is actually under their control... What if the verified person withdrew to an address of a friend? or a customer?
It's an infeasible, stupid and bad idea, period.
Actually, Hazek, I think you may have stumbled into to the solution to this whole mess. Really, all that has to happen is that someone that owns a big stash of tainted coins (say the good folk who brought you the MyBitcoin fiasco, or some equivalent) send a few satoshis to hundreds of thousands of addresses... they can "taint" the entire network for a few thousand USD worth of coins, including the walmarts and mcdonalds of this world. |
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Rupture
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November 15, 2013, 01:46:10 PM |
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Really hoping this doesn't go ahead :/
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Feri22
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November 15, 2013, 02:10:37 PM |
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...or they just use dollars.
If businesses will accept this STUPID idea, for example McDonald etc....i am sorry, but this will be end of bitcoin because you will have not single store whereyou can use it as now
Why will it kill bitcoin? Most people will get a bitcoin trusted address like they do now with paypal or a cc card and get over it. All the advantages bitcoin was suppose to have (small fees , easy to use , fast trasactions) are going to be forgotten because the merchants request an id in order to buy from them? The ones who don't want it... they don't want it and that's it. Nothing you can do about it. If McDonalds embraces this idea i bet that in 1 month we'll have at least 20k verified addresses. It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing. If I understand this right...Let's say you are in the world, where BTC is 1# currency and the blacklisting/redlisting or whatever is working...you are in the country where prostitution / drugs are illegal (almost all countries in world). Now tell me one thing...how are you gonna pay? Sure you wouldn't pay with bitcoins (all prostitution and drug bitcoins and adresses would be blacklisted, right?), would you? Because if in any time in future the prostitute or drug dealer will be caught, they will track the bitcoins to you...And you know what? How the tv show character Walter White said in the Breaking Bad.... "Do you really wanna live in a world without Coca-Cola?"... i don't... I am not saying, that i approve drugs or prostitution...no, but people should have their own choice to decide if they want to make stupid things or not...that is a life... Nobody can track dollar bills, if there would be some way, they would already track it...bitcoin bring this possibility to the governments.....so if this will happen, our freedom will be smaller than it is now and privacy? In few years, there will be no such thing as a privacy... So after all, when bitcoins will "win" the battle for #1 currency, in exchange for our financial freedom and privacy...i think many people would say: You remember the dollar? Yeah man, good old times.... I don't know, i am just thinking something like this surely can destroy bitcoin and the sooner you will get it, the sooner we can take some actions against it as a community, together... What did you smoke? You're seeing as a problem that people can't do anything illegal? Well , let me give you another example , maybe you realize what stupidity you just said: Control chips are installed on birth and the first thing people are scared of is : "I can't kill my neighbor anymore" First...Thanks to bitcoin, I smoke Cohiba Behike what do you smoke? ..Second, I wrote: "It can be wrong, but I choosed this extreme argument, because i think it can show you something, what you are missing." It didn't show you what you are missing here and you didn't understand it at all so better read posts from other members, maybe than you will get it, but basically i wrote the same, i was just hoping you will see the problem here in this scenario, but from your posts i have that feeling we both are living in two different worlds so let's just agree to disagree... EDIT: Prostitution and buying weed in Netherland is legal....your "can't kill neighbor anymore" example is stupidity for me, because it is not the same and exactly because you don't get this, that its not the same, you are not understanding my point above....we are living in two different worlds...I want the freedom to decide, you obviously don't... Can you pay in a weed shop in Netherlands or in a brothel with a visa card issued in France? Whats the point of your question? It doesnt matter if you can pay in brothel with visa or not. It would matter if there was no other way to pay in brothel than using visa card...You can pay there with physical bills or coins, thus non-trackable...bitcoin is online only and you can track every transaction...with tainting coins, tracking will go to whole another level and it would bring more negative things than positive |
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niothor (OP)
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November 15, 2013, 02:43:43 PM |
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Whats the point of your question? It doesnt matter if you can pay in brothel with visa or not. It would matter if there was no other way to pay in brothel than using visa card...You can pay there with physical bills or coins, thus non-trackable...bitcoin is online only and you can track every transaction...with tainting coins, tracking will go to whole another level and it would bring more negative things than positive
The point is that I can pay with a card issued in a country where prostitution is banned in another country in which it is not banned without having anything to worry about it. You can do that with cards , bitcoins , cash with no problem. If you want to do it in a country in which it is banned , you're breaking the law , no matter what you use. So , you're advocating for privacy just so you cold break the law? There are two ways around this: 1) Run in the shadows and continue breaking the laws and hope you won't get caught 2) Try to change the laws |
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notthematrix
Legendary
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Activity: 980
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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
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November 15, 2013, 05:41:44 PM |
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96% of dollar bills have traces of coke on it ,,, so I gues 99% is tainted.... sorry you can not taint bitcoin, there is no pont any mixer can undo it , is just that simple.
The US govt will fail here.
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niothor (OP)
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November 15, 2013, 05:48:15 PM |
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96% of dollar bills have traces of coke on it ,,, so I gues 99% is tainted.... sorry you can not taint bitcoin, there is no pont any mixer can undo it , is just that simple.
The US govt will fail here.
You didn't even bother to read , did you? |
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