An Anti-Libertarian FAQ Worth Talking About?

[kiba]

http://www.raikoth.net/libertarian.html

Something worth talking about.

I like the critique of "taxation is theft". That's ACTUALLY COHERENT. They didn't fall into the public good trap and that kind of nonsense.

(I am not sure about utilitarianism as an ethical philosophy myself...)

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[The Script]

Ha, very interesting.  I was just debating with a utilitarian tonight and told him I would research his position more so we could continue our discussion.  I didn't read all of the FAQ, but what I did read was interesting.  I'll look more closely at it later and want to point out what I thought were some flaws.  I think the libertarians in this forum should make it a challenge of refuting or correcting this FAQ point by point (unless we can't, logically) and sending him the response.  It would be a great intellectual exercise and would help solidify or change our points of view.

[grondilu]

http://www.raikoth.net/libertarian.html

Something worth talking about.

I like the critique of "taxation is theft". That's ACTUALLY COHERENT. They didn't fall into the public good trap and that kind of nonsense.

(I am not sure about utilitarianism as an ethical philosophy myself...)

Just read this quickly, skipping some boring parts about morality.

It is indeed a good text, much more clever that what I read usually from states-lovers.

I'll write more about it later.

[kiba]

I am glad some of us are more attached to our rationality than to our admittedly very well loved ideology called Libertarianism.

[da2ce7]

It doesn't matter if Anti-Libertarian happens to be the best system... You can have whatever system you want.  Providing you respect my right to conduct only voluntary and consensual relationship, in all parts of life.

[kiba]

It doesn't matter if Anti-Libertarian happens to be the best system... You can have whatever system you want.  Providing you respect my right to conduct only voluntary and consensual relationship, in all parts of life.

I am in agreement with your sentiment, but it is easy to dismiss his arguments and not worry about it. Learning about why our position is flawed will help us figure out a libertarian philosophy that is more coherent and epistemological correct.

That's to say, I am more interested in being "right" rather than feeling nice and warm, but wrong.

[JohnDoe]

I must be retarded because I don't get his argument against "taxation is theft". He basically admits taxation is theft with "What's theft? It's taking something without permission. So it's true that taxation is theft" but then somehow debunks it? Someone help me out here.

[kiba]

I must be retarded because I don't get his argument against "taxation is theft". He basically admits taxation is theft with "What's theft? It's taking something without permission. So it's true that taxation is theft" but then somehow debunks it? Someone help me out here.

As far as I understand, he think "murder is wrong" is more of a moral rule of thumb. This applies to taxation too.

Sometime it is necessary to shoot would-be aggressors in the head. That is in some sense, a murder. He argue that some problem could only be solved with coercing people to give up a small amount of property.

[ribuck]

So it's true that taxation is theft" but then somehow debunks it?

He argues this way: "Yes, obviously taxation is theft, but here are some reasons why it's good theft."

[JohnDoe]

Oh, I thought the argument ended right there on 3.1.1. Continued reading from 3.6 but still couldn't find a good reason why I should let the government steal money from me. Basically he said that if I don't let them, then civilization collapses somehow. Just skimmed through but it doesn't look like he elaborates on this, goes on to talk about government welfare vs private charity.

[Anonymous]

Well, this has opened up my perspective. I am going to become a nihilist for a little while...

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Existentialism is far superior.

[Anonymous]

Existentialism is far superior.

That would require for me to create value on pure whim. For some reason, that's hard for me to do.

[kiba]

Bitcoin might make taxation impossible.

So the whole morality of taxation might as well become irrelevant because it force this person who wrote the FAQ into our inconvenient libertarian world.

It's still important to answer his objection though.

[ribuck]

Bitcoin might make taxation impossible.

Cash transactions might make taxation impossible too. But in practise they don't.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Moreso for bitcoin though - it is fluid like an email and if it is encrypted and certain techniques are used, nigh untraceable. So whereas cash is easier to hide than credit card transactions, bitcoins are easier to hide than cash, by many orders of magnitude I would say.

[Gavin Andresen]

If you really want to sway people, you need to find areas of agreement and blissfully ignore things about which you strongly disagree.

There is a lot to agree with in that FAQ, in my humble opinion.

Oh, and you have to learn to ignore people who just won't listen to reason, or who are starting with different assumptions about how the world works than you.

[fergalish]

Providing you respect my right to conduct only voluntary and consensual relationship, in all parts of life.

I think this is being too simplistic.  Look at, say, a pride of lions.  As free as can be, roaming the plains, knowing no laws, knowing no government.  However when there's a successful hunt, and everyone wants to chow down, well there's a conflict and (I guess) the prime male gets first choice.

In our society there are conflicts too, because what I want (and should be free to do) is mutually esclusive with what you want (and should be free to do).  There are limited resources and we are competing for them.

Therefore, No.  There will always be some circumstances in which your right to conduct only voluntary and consensual relationships should not be respected by all.  In a pride of lions, the top male decides.  In our society, at present, there are laws which decide, but in a stateless society... damned if I know who decides.  I have a big problem with libertarianism and conflict resolution.  Help me to understand guys.

[Anonymous]

In government charity 70 per cent is spent on beauracrats and paperwork.

[kiba]

In government charity 70 per cent is spent on beauracrats and paperwork.

Just because you found a nice ideology that is coherent and consistent doesn't mean you are given permission to stop thinking.