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Author Topic: Abortion is a God Given Right of Females like the right to bear Arms  (Read 753 times)
Carlton Banks
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July 19, 2018, 11:07:13 AM
 #41

There's 2 distinct part of this issue to me

Ethical: abortion is murder

It's alive, and you made a decision to kill it. That's murder, whether it's a dinosaur, a lab rat, a bacteria colony or a human fetus.

Murder is not always bad. I think that's what causes the problems in the abortion debate, alot of polarisation about murder always being wrong. But I don't think it's unfair to say that murder should always be avoided if possible.


Practical: abortion always has and always will exist

You can't stop people murdering human fetuses in utero. It's impossible to manage, and counter-productive to punish. No-one will ever agree universally on the ethics, it's impossible to achieve that.


So, it's best not to interfere, all that does is encourage the idea that interfering in each other's lives is "correct", when the truth is that we all have different ideas about right and wrong anyway.
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July 19, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
 #42

There's 2 distinct part of this issue to me

Ethical: abortion is murder

It's alive, and you made a decision to kill it. That's murder, whether it's a dinosaur, a lab rat, a bacteria colony or a human fetus.

Murder is not always bad. I think that's what causes the problems in the abortion debate, alot of polarisation about murder always being wrong. But I don't think it's unfair to say that murder should always be avoided if possible.


Practical: abortion always has and always will exist

You can't stop people murdering human fetuses in utero. It's impossible to manage, and counter-productive to punish. No-one will ever agree universally on the ethics, it's impossible to achieve that.


So, it's best not to interfere, all that does is encourage the idea that interfering in each other's lives is "correct", when the truth is that we all have different ideas about right and wrong anyway.

THE MOTHER DECIDE.

it is simplest, fastest, less hassle, other more serious problem can be allocated limited ressources... wasting time on this is useless... some looks like cavemen still discussing how to light a fire... and mentally this is an unhealty discussion. mother do what she wants until delivery. end of the discussion...

this pussy obsession is boring...

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July 19, 2018, 01:20:51 PM
 #43

Ethical: abortion is murder

It's alive, and you made a decision to kill it. That's murder, whether it's a dinosaur, a lab rat, a bacteria colony or a human fetus.

By definition, murder is the premeditated killing of another human being. By your definition, everyone becomes a mass murderer every time they wash their hands.

The debate is at what point a fetus becomes a human being. It certainly isn't at conception. Human cells, yes. Human being, no. My argument has always been that until it develops a nervous system capable of consciousness (around 22-24 weeks), it is not a life.
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July 19, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
 #44

Ethical: abortion is murder

It's alive, and you made a decision to kill it. That's murder, whether it's a dinosaur, a lab rat, a bacteria colony or a human fetus.

By definition, murder is the premeditated killing of another human being. By your definition, everyone becomes a mass murderer every time they wash their hands.

Yep, and that's why I essentially said "not all murders are ethically the same"


Simple example: vegetarians say "meat is murder". Everyone has their own moral boundaries, neither you, I, or a book can decide that.


The debate is at what point a fetus becomes a human being. It certainly isn't at conception. Human cells, yes. Human being, no. My argument has always been that until it develops a nervous system capable of consciousness (around 22-24 weeks), it is not a life.

So you're saying it's just semantics (incidentally, what makes you think you have any kind of authority do define a valid debate?).

So, if these human cells aren't alive, abortion isn't necessary. Unfortunately, it's a biological fact that fetal cells are, both individually and together, alive. And that's why an abortion happens at all; to stop the child from coming to term.
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July 19, 2018, 03:08:43 PM
 #45

Yep, and that's why I essentially said "not all murders are ethically the same"

You also said that killing bacteria is murder. I was just pointing out that that simply isn't true.


Unfortunately, it's a biological fact that fetal cells are, both individually and together, alive.

Alive? Yes. A human being? No.

Regardless, this isn't a useful metric. It's a biological fact that tumour cells are both individually and together alive.
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July 19, 2018, 03:52:41 PM
 #46

So being "life" isn't important? That's not what you said before.


Like I said, this is all semantic arguments really. But an abortion isn't. Either you do it, or you don't. And either the baby grows or it doesn't.

It's all about perspective really; a pregnant mother having a scan looks at a 16 or 20 week old fetus and sees her baby, and thinks and refers to it that way. A mother aborting a fetus perhaps prefers to think of the fetus as just cells.

So if it's all about perspective, then can people not choose how they think about this issue? Or must everyone think exactly the same thing you do? You will have problems achieving the latter.
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July 19, 2018, 04:16:11 PM
Last edit: July 19, 2018, 05:01:58 PM by o_e_l_e_o
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 #47

So if it's all about perspective, then can people not choose how they think about this issue?

Of course people can hold any opinion they wish, and I never claimed otherwise.

All cells are alive, but I'm simply pointing out that a clump of cells without a functioning nervous system, incapable of thinking, feeling, sensing, responding, or consciousness, is not yet a human.
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July 19, 2018, 11:10:30 PM
 #48

All cells are alive, but I'm simply pointing out that a clump of cells without a functioning nervous system, incapable of thinking, feeling, sensing, responding, or consciousness, is not yet a human.

Tell that to someone who had an abortion and can't stop feeling extreme guilt about it for the rest of their life (which isn't necessarily everyone who does, but certainly some).

Morality is about the way we feel about defined actions. Here's a moral absolute for you: it's not really acceptable to say to someone "Hey, technically, there's nothing to be upset about, it was only a bunch of cells".


There are too many people today arguing that there's only one way of looking at this problem or that problem. We can have a lot less conflict if we accept that other people's very antithetical perspectives are valid, .
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July 19, 2018, 11:51:17 PM
Merited by suchmoon (7), o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #49

I actually think there is much more to giving women rights.  In the west the debate is largely over.  Most women have many more rights than their counterparts in 3rd world countries.

I personally wish people would allow women to decide for themselves.  Give them proper education about the long term consequences of carrying to term or aborting.  Let's be honest both choice have life long impacts.  Give them safe legal options, because they are going to get them anyways.

Women who get abortions are our sisters, wives, daughters, mothers, they're not criminals.  They are intelligent people, give them some credit and some education so they can make their OWN smart decision and be safe about.  It is 2018 you know!


I'm often reminded of the late great Christopher Hitchens and his comments on womens rights to choose for themselves.

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The cure for poverty has a name, in fact. It’s called the empowerment of women. (Applause).
If you give women some control over the rate at which they reproduce, if you give them some say, take them off the animal cycle of reproduction to which nature and some religious doctrine condemns them, and then if you throw in a handful of seeds, the floor of everything in that village, not just poverty, but health and education, will increase. Try it in Bangladesh and Bolivia, it works all the time.

Source:  http://monicks.net/2010/11/27/christopher-hitchens-vs-tony-blair-the-full-transcript/
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July 20, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
 #50

I personally wish people would allow women to decide for themselves.  Give them proper education about the long term consequences of carrying to term or aborting.  Let's be honest both choice have life long impacts.  Give them safe legal options, because they are going to get them anyways.

This pretty much sums it up. If you try to remove a woman's bodily autonomy by forcing her to carry an unwanted pregnancy, then you affording her less rights than we do to a corpse. Let her decide for herself.
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July 21, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4), Flying Hellfish (2), o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #51

I personally wish people would allow women to decide for themselves.  Give them proper education about the long term consequences of carrying to term or aborting.  Let's be honest both choice have life long impacts.  Give them safe legal options, because they are going to get them anyways.

This pretty much sums it up. If you try to remove a woman's bodily autonomy by forcing her to carry an unwanted pregnancy, then you affording her less rights than we do to a corpse. Let her decide for herself.

I`ve been following this thread for some time now and refusing myself to engage with the discussion since I am a woman and I find most all the quotes somehow insulting.
Ok, men. I have a body. This is myyy body. In terms of reproduction, men and women are involved but it is my body, my whole body, the responsibility of feeding, growing-up and, in a resume, create a whole new life.
What if I don`t want to have another being inside my belly? What if, despite I`ve taken all the measures created by science I got pregnant? What if I just don`t want to feel sick, to have a delivery, to spend the next whole year of my life with my body going onto one change to another?

Men in the thread: try to picture for a second what to be pregnant means: to feel sick, to grow something inside of you, to feel depressed, tyred... What if I just don`t want any of this? Are you going to push me, to oblige me to carry another life inside of my own body? Seriously?

I don`t believe in God, I can`t see a child as a god's gift, but as a circumstance and as something having a place inside my own body. Really, guys,  do you really want a creature growing up inside your own body? Changing your life fo-re-ver? Because having a baby is not only to deliver the new creature into an overpopulated world -by the way. Is the task of taking care forever for another person.

Men have a partial view of the situation. They can just go after the delivery, they can become visitors of their own child. But women... well, we don`t have this.

Sorry. I just can`t understand how this kind of conversations can be in the mouths of the people. This is a conversation a woman needs to have with herself or, in the case, a couple must have. This is my body. And nobody has any right of taking a desition about my own body, no one!!

Society is used to give all the responsibility to the women: anticonception pills -with all the secondary effects they have, the responsibility of the care after the delivery... Well that`s enough, isn`t it? Or... If I am the one guilty of getting pregnant, give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.
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July 22, 2018, 12:17:50 AM
Merited by NadiaHel (1)
 #52

give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.

Could you imagine for just a minute if males carried offspring?  Not only would abortion be legal it would be state covered and men would be given months off work paid to recover!

My wife and daughter are wonderful intelligent people and I can't imagine a single person in the world better able to decide what to do for themselves than them!!
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July 22, 2018, 12:51:36 AM
 #53

give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.

Could you imagine for just a minute if males carried offspring?  Not only would abortion be legal it would be state covered and men would be given months off work paid to recover!

My wife and daughter are wonderful intelligent people and I can't imagine a single person in the world better able to decide what to do for themselves than them!!

Of course. If males were the one carrying the babies we wouldn`t have this conversation.
Thanks for your words. That`s exactly was I was trying to mean.
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July 22, 2018, 05:31:20 AM
 #54

Society is used to give all the responsibility to the women: anticonception pills -with all the secondary effects they have, the responsibility of the care after the delivery... Well that`s enough, isn`t it? Or... If I am the one guilty of getting pregnant, give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.

This is an incredibly good point, and I had not considered the issue in this way before:

We are quite happy for women to bear all the responsibilities of pregnancy, contraception, childbirth, etc, but we want strip them any of the associated rights. Talk about inequality.
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July 22, 2018, 12:25:18 PM
 #55

It might sound very harsh but:

When something feeds on a host and cannot sustain itself without that host is is called a parasite.

Whether it is a parasitic worm or pathogen.

If it is living in your body and you want to get rid of it - nobody blinks an eye.

Murdering a tapeworm ? Massacring bacteria ?

When a host has something growing in them they should have the right to get rid of it.

Whatever the parasitic organism might be. Tapeworm, bacteria, sperm or fetus.

Pregnancy is a reasonably dangerous medical condition - try applying for life insurance while pregnant !

Once it can sustain life by itself without a host it becomes murder.

But people should take more responsibility and not get pregnant in the first place if they don't want to have a kid.

The world is overpopulated by humans. For a child to be born into a world when it is not wanted by its parents it creates a huge problem for that child.

Emotional trauma and financial disadvantage.  Consider prevention before pregnancy and consider adoption before termination.

Once they are born they have rights and require 18+ years of protection, love and nurture. Unwanted children are just sad. I'd love to adopt a child.






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July 22, 2018, 02:59:09 PM
 #56

Society is used to give all the responsibility to the women: anticonception pills -with all the secondary effects they have, the responsibility of the care after the delivery... Well that`s enough, isn`t it? Or... If I am the one guilty of getting pregnant, give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.

This is an incredibly good point, and I had not considered the issue in this way before:

We are quite happy for women to bear all the responsibilities of pregnancy, contraception, childbirth, etc, but we want strip them any of the associated rights. Talk about inequality.

Yep. Try to imagine for a second that a new project of law arises and obliged all men to get a vasectomy, for instance. It is impossible to think because it is against the freedom of men -even when it should be a really better way of over-population-control.  But, of course, it is unthinkable.
But women.. well. In the middle 60`s the anticonception pills were seen as a sing or revolution, but, there is not. The secondary symptoms are horrible for many, and yet, we don`t have a man`s anti-conceptive pill. Why? Because all the responsibility is on women, as usual.

And, of course, others feel they have the right of discussing my own and personal body in social terms, because I`m a woman, so others need to take desitions in my place? How is that? Are we in the XXI century or not?
Where I live a woman can go to jail if she is raped and get an abortion; if the baby is coming in a bad shape and she decides to abort, for her life is in a risk; if she simply doesn`t want the baby. It is considered murder, and she`s going to go to jail for a lifetime. But rapping? It is just a month in jail.
How fair, eh?

Turn it back. Imagine that women were allowed to castrate men, for instance, and that they (women) decides that all men should be castrated. Try to imagine that for one second. And now, imagine that were the women the ones in the power instead of the men, so they can promulgate any law relative to the other`s body. Quite terrible, isn`t it?
Imagine that all the social responsibility of reproduction were deposited on the men. Hard, isn`t it?
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July 22, 2018, 03:00:36 PM
 #57

Men in the thread: try to picture for a second what to be pregnant means: to feel sick, to grow something inside of you, to feel depressed, tyred...
I think you're not seeing the whole picture of pregnancy. How about picturing your first kick of child, first baby shower, how you're going to play with your child, how he/she will be growing up with time...instead of being pessimistic all the time. Even though I'm a man, I know how it's being pregnant. Because I don't believed that women's are the only one who gets pregnant. Because when I know about my wife's being pregnant, the feeling I had at that moment will never can be erased throughout my life. It's like something that I cannot express by words. So I didn't thought any seconds that she got pregnant instead what I thought and what I told is we got pregnant and we can go this pregnancy period with together.

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I don`t believe in God, I can`t see a child as a god's gift, but as a circumstance and as something having a place inside my own body.
I also didn't believed child as a God's gift and didn't like the way you called a unborn child( actually human being) as "something". That word is not having any love at all, it's like a physical thing that didn't have life. But actually is it? No way. It's the beginning of life.

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Really, guys,  do you really want a creature growing up inside your own body? Changing your life fo-re-ver? Because having a baby is not only to deliver the new creature into an overpopulated world -by the way. Is the task of taking care forever for another person.
Don't even think about that way. Can I know how you interpret "life"? What do you mean by "changing your life fo-re-ver?" Is that mean the happiness, joy that brings up with babies or changing your body shape, changing your lifestyle. Giving a birth to a child and rising up that child is not a task but a most responsible job in the entire world. That job you didn't get paid, didn't even have any leaves. But you have the utter satisfaction at the end of the day. I didn't mean that is only duty of women's but the men's too. Trust me now I'm feeling that satisfaction by being a father.

Just imagine what happened if your mother thought the same way that you're thinking, when they knowing about their pregnancy.

Quote
give me the chance to decide what to do with my own body at least.
It's not your own body, thats the end product, years of sacrifices of your parents. As far my believes "abortion" is not a thing we must rejected, but we need to think about twice before we adopt it. Sometimes when we consider about situations like getting raped , illness of the mother which inability of taking care about her child, when mother's life in danger if she delivered, can consider about abortion. But in other scenarios I don't think it is a good thing to practise. Then it will automatically become a thrend which is not good for the developing society too.
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July 22, 2018, 03:59:51 PM
Last edit: July 22, 2018, 04:20:39 PM by NadiaHel
 #58


I think you're not seeing the whole picture of pregnancy. How about picturing your first kick of child, first baby shower, how you're going to play with your child, how he/she will be growing up with time...instead of being pessimistic all the time. Even though I'm a man, I know how it's being pregnant. Because I don't believed that women's are the only one who gets pregnant. Because when I know about my wife's being pregnant, the feeling I had at that moment will never can be erased throughout my life. It's like something that I cannot express by words. So I didn't thought any seconds that she got pregnant instead what I thought and what I told is we got pregnant and we can go this pregnancy period with together.

Yeah, sure, because you can`t be fired because getting pregnant, because your life is not in danger, because you want to be a father -which I respect. But, I don`t want to be a mother, and I don`t think anyone must have the ability to force me to become one.
Can you feel this first kick? I don`t think so, man.

I also didn't believed child as a God's gift and didn't like the way you called a unborn child( actually human being) as "something". That word is not having any love at all, it's like a physical thing that didn't have life. But actually is it? No way. It's the beginning of life.

Oh, no dear, in fact, a fetus is just a "something" because it has not yet any nerve system, no feelings, no thoughts.

Don't even think about that way. Can I know how you interpret "life"? What do you mean by "changing your life fo-re-ver?" Is that mean the happiness, joy that brings up with babies or changing your body shape, changing your lifestyle. Giving a birth to a child and rising up that child is not a task but a most responsible job in the entire world. That job you didn't get paid, didn't even have any leaves. But you have the utter satisfaction at the end of the day. I didn't mean that is only duty of women's but the men's too. Trust me now I'm feeling that satisfaction by being a father.

Just imagine what happened if your mother thought the same way that you're thinking, when they knowing about their pregnancy.

I can`t see a baby in this way, I just can see an over-populated world. Also, I`m quite against the anthropocentric way of looking at things. To be honest, humankind is not the centre of the universe, this is just another animal with unnatural reproduction behaviours, and it is actually destroying the planet. So, no. I can`t see why I must be obliged to carry a child if any accident happens to me.
Besides, it is your point, it is how you see to become a father -you can`t imagine what a mother is. And I respect that. I love when the people arround me have children. But then, why I can`t be respected if I don`t want one? Why is your oppinion more important than mine?


It's not your own body, thats the end product, years of sacrifices of your parents. As far my believes "abortion" is not a thing we must rejected, but we need to think about twice before we adopt it. Sometimes when we consider about situations like getting raped , illness of the mother which inability of taking care about her child, when mother's life in danger if she delivered, can consider about abortion. But in other scenarios I don't think it is a good thing to practise. Then it will automatically become a thrend which is not good for the developing society too.


And what if the mother doesn`t want a child? What if the mere idea of having one is disturbing and unpleasant, as well as depressing?
My body is MINE. This is not my parent`s result. This is mine. And yes, they decided to have children freely, the same way I can decide not to. This is not for someone but me to decide.
By the way, I`m sure my parents will be the first in being agree if I decided to abort. So, then, I am right? Because, of course, I am a woman so my body doesn`t belongs to me, I don`t have the right to make my own desitions about my body, from your perspective. So, what if my parents agree with me aborting? Then that`s right?

What a nonsense you wrote, dear. Nonsense.

I love children. I would like to adopt one eventually, but it is too difficult. I just don`t want to have one of my own, for we are too many people in the planet already, and I`ve seen with my own eyes over-populated families with starving children under their arm. How can it be fair? To bring a new creature in a world where he/she is about to suffer? And yet, a poor family is allowed -and encouraged by their religion- to have as many children as they want, even if they don`t have any food to carry to their mouths. How can it be fair?

However, I am a woman. You don`t get pregnant. You don`t have a single clue of what pregnancy means to a woman`s body, to a woman`s life.
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July 22, 2018, 05:27:44 PM
 #59

Yeah, sure, because you can`t be fired because getting pregnant, because your life is not in danger, because you want to be a father -which I respect.
No, we want to become parents and giving birth to our child.

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But, I don`t want to be a mother,
That's up to you and you only. So don't generalize the problem of that you don't want to become a mother with others.

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and I don`t think anyone must have the ability to force me to become one.
Of course not, I don't think you're ready to take responsibilities of a mother.

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Can you feel this first kick? I don`t think so, man.
Absolutely yes I missed the first kick but not the second one Wink

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Oh, no dear, in fact, a fetus is just a "something" because it has not yet any nerve system, no feelings, no thoughts.
How you so sure about that fetus doesn't has any feeling or no thoughts? Are those facts taken from ever  changing science researchs? Are those research are giving us the absolute truth regarding fetus? Sometimes people choose to classify babies with beating heart as "fetus" to make people feel better about abortion. But murder is always a murder wether science proved or not that baby cannot feeled it when abortion take place.

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, this is just another animal with unnatural reproduction behaviours, and it is actually destroying the planet
Do you think abortion is the answer for that "unnatural production behaviors?" Can you tell me what you taken as natural reproduction behavior and where you draw the line of unnatural?

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So, no. I can`t see why I must be obliged to carry a child if any accident happens to me.
No you shouldn't, that's why I earlier said that there can be few exceptions where we actually want to consider about abortion.

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Besides, it is your point, it is how you see to become a father -you can`t imagine what a mother is.
Yes I can and I lived with that feeling(being a father) by sharing thoughts with my wife(how she feels after becoming a mother). Do you?

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. But then, why I can`t be respected if I don`t want one? Why is your oppinion more important than mine?
Who says that you're not respected, I'm not the one who spelled it. I don't say my openion is more important than yours, but I just only want to say don't generalize the your problem with others whose actually wanting babies not murders.

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By the way, I`m sure my parents will be the first in being agree if I decided to abort. So, then, I am right?
No you are not, I just give you an example what will happen if everyone beginning to think like you.

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What a nonsense you wrote, dear. Nonsense.
It is subjective dear, can we leave it to decide other members who read these posts. Wink

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I love children.
I doubted.

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, a poor family is allowed -and encouraged by their religion- to have as many children as they want, even if they don`t have any food to carry to their mouths. How can it be fair?
That's an another problem relates to only one religion actually. I think you know what I mean. I'm not fan of that thing too.

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However, I am a woman. You don`t get pregnant. You don`t have a single clue of what pregnancy means to a woman`s body, to a woman`s life.
Do you???
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July 22, 2018, 05:53:05 PM
 #60

<...>


As usual, people moving in radical terms while speaking about pregnancy. Yes, I do love children, and, yet, I don`t want to become a biological mother.
Yes, I think anyone should have the right to decide whereas they want to become a mother or not, and it shouldn`t be a social desition, but a personal one.
Yes, there are in the world women that are not interested in becoming mothers, because they just don`t want. Nobody should have the right to force them to become one. And, by the way, it doesn`t affect the humankind as a specimen, for it is already over-populated.

You know nothing about my life, and, yet, you are making assumptions about how I am. The discussion is about the right to decide about the body. If you still think a fetus is a human being, then you should probably read the whole thread -medical experts opinions included, before judging someone you don`t even know.

Yes, I know what to be pregnant is, and it is not of your concern.

Every time a woman says "I don`t want to become a biological mother", voices raise as if it was something unnatural. No, I am far more than a uterus. I`m a person. And maybe I just don`t want to be pregnant, and to carry a new life inside me.

So, in conclusion, and with the aim of returning to the original question: do you agree with women being forced to carry and give birth to an undesired son?
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