No Chargebacks; All Transactions Final: Won't Fly.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Bitcoin puts all the power in the merchant's hands...

Both "All transactions final" and "Chargebacks allowed" are bad. The best way is somewhere in the middle.

[1714933774]

1714933774

[1714933774]

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[franky1]

Bitcoin puts all the power in the merchant's hands...

Both "All transactions final" and "Chargebacks allowed" are bad. The best way is somewhere in the middle.

bitcoin peer-to peer transactions is like cash in the hand

if you want refund and protection then a proper corporation EG bitpay/bips.me (not a teenage basement dweller) will offer a 'pocket money service" app where you can deposit say $100 of coin and know that you can instant spend in retail shops like starbucks and use the service to 'preconfirm' coins and use them to request refunds if proof is given.

[Come-from-Beyond]

if you want refund and protection then a proper corporation EG bitpay/bips.me (not a teenage basement dweller) will offer a 'pocket money service" app where you can deposit say $100 of coin and know that you can instant spend in retail shops like starbucks and use the service to 'preconfirm' coins and use them to request refunds if proof is given.

This requires trust to a 3rd party. No, thx.

[BittBurger]

Thanks everyone.  Just wanted to open a discussion on it (apparently, again).

Let me play devils advocate here, and respond as I would see a "Regulator" responding to your comments.  

I would expect a regulator to say the following:

Response 1:  Don't use Bitcoin

Reason why invalid:  Bitcoin's ultimate evolution is the full replacement of fiat.  It needs to be prepared for that, now, even if there are other choices. It will never get there if there are *zero* consumer protections in place for it.  This isn't a valid response.

Response 2:  Its the same as cash

Reason why invalid:  Cash is not used in online purchases, so comparing this to an in-person hand to hand exchange of cash is an invalid response to this issue. Except in rare cases where wires are required to pay, which is basically:  Almost never.  This needs to be compared to visa and mastercard because visa and mastercard are exactly what Bitcoin is supposed to replace.  It never will, if it has zero consumer protections.

Response 3:  Human history didn't include chargebacks

Reason why invalid:  Human history also didn't child labor laws.  Or planes.  Or condoms.  Invalid response.

Response 4:  This has already been discussed.

Reason why invalid:  I requsted that you tell me what the solution was.

Response 5:  Merchant reputation will suffer

Reason why invalid:  Granted, but this is not a solution, unless there was a worldwide database of easily retrievable merchant reviews that everyone on earth had access to.  Since there isn't, this isn't a solution.  Plenty of shop owners I know who operate under the reputation radar.  The world isn't that connected yet.

Response 5:  We're going to have consumer protection, and it wont require altering Bitcoin protocol to include chargebacks

Finally, a valid response.  What is the change being implemented, and when will it be implemented?  
I hope folks in the BTC development realm are aware that this is going to be the biggest issue, and its coming very soon.  It needs to be tackled before its even raised as an issue.

Response 6:  "Bitcoin is a protocol.  If you want to build a traditional online bank or payment service that does chargebacks on top of it, nothing is stopping you."

Thank you.  This also addresses the original concern.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Disclaimer: if there is already a solution, please feel free to make my entire post moot, and correct me with it.

Escrow.

The free market will also find other solutions.  No need for bankers or politicians to intervene.  Their solutions are too costly.  Solutions don't appear overnight, they evolve over time.

[BombaUcigasa]

Sometimes customers deserve to get their money back:  Yes, customers can contact me directly to request a refund.  But what if I disagree with them?  What if the merchant is dishonest?

- Customer wants their money back? Give it back if you agree.
- You don't agree? Contact a third party to settle the case.
- The merchant is dishonest? Ever heard of ratings/reviews?

[franky1]

if you want refund and protection then a proper corporation EG bitpay/bips.me (not a teenage basement dweller) will offer a 'pocket money service" app where you can deposit say $100 of coin and know that you can instant spend in retail shops like starbucks and use the service to 'preconfirm' coins and use them to request refunds if proof is given.

This requires trust to a 3rd party. No, thx.

im not saying that third parties are needed for every transaction.. but if you want a guaranteed refund policy then you have to trust someone. and if you cant trust the retailer direct to send your coin back if things go wrong (current situation) then having a middle man would be it. and as i said this is not for storing your whole wallet, but for voluntary amounts, just for convenience. much like escrows.

if your proposing to have code in the blockchain. where if you send command: Deliveryfailed=True; then the blockchain will automatically create a transaction on the retailers side to send the coin back without their choice. then this is even worse then paypals chargeback policy.. because everyone would be trying to claim refunds just by sending a command.

if you want a refund then the retailer would have to be trusted. (which is what everyone should be doing now, only dealing with trusted people) or using an escrow service/middleman

[Come-from-Beyond]

if you want a refund then the retailer would have to be trusted. (which is what everyone should be doing now, only dealing with trusted people) or using an escrow service/middleman

Or u can do a 2-step transaction as described in my link above.

[Peter Lambert]

If you send somebody money (whether it be bitcoins or cash), and they fail to uphold their end of the deal, can't you settle with them in a court of law? Isn't that what the courts are there for?

[Ecurb123]

it's already flying, so far there isn't a problem with people wanting to spend btc, the problem is that people find it too hard to get btc.

[tntdgcr]

Bitcoin is a protocol.  If you want to build a traditional online bank or payment service that does chargebacks on top of it, nothing is stopping you. If you want to be your own bank and not worry about chargebacks, you can do that too.

Discussion over.

+100 ( don't know how to ascii input an infinite loop )

The idea of chargebacks, are purely a profit center for banks, that penalizes all merchants. Most merchants will gladly give you a refund, when a refund is merited.  Unlike your CC , there is no "recurring" draw from a BTC address, therefore the onus is on the BTC holder to make smart decisions.

Escrow services should thrive, and people should relish the overall savings to be had, when Transaction Fees and Conversion fees are much fairer then overall services rendered with traditional card based transactions.

If you wanted to be a BTC Bank , you'd really be nothing more then an escrow service. Settlement delays are settlement delays.

[franky1]

Bitcoin is a protocol.  If you want to build a traditional online bank or payment service that does chargebacks on top of it, nothing is stopping you. If you want to be your own bank and not worry about chargebacks, you can do that too.

Discussion over.

+100 ( don't know how to ascii input an infinite loop )

The idea of chargebacks, are purely a profit center for banks, that penalizes all merchants. Most merchants will gladly give you a refund, when a refund is merited.  Unlike your CC , there is no "recurring" draw from a BTC address, therefore the onus is on the BTC holder to make smart decisions.

Escrow services should thrive, and people should relish the overall savings to be had, when Transaction Fees and Conversion fees are much fairer then overall services rendered with traditional card based transactions.

If you wanted to be a BTC Bank , you'd really be nothing more then an escrow service. Settlement delays are settlement delays.

+1∞

i dont know why my post got deleted, but i 1∞ agree