Hypothesis: BTCChina is completely fake (with evidence)

[windjc]

You know, I do find it odd that the Chinese state hasn't been inclined to place any restrictions upon Bitcoin (the most subversive technology on the planet) when they go to particularly extensive lengths to restrict pretty much everything else.  Maybe they just dropped the ball on this one, and recognise it's not really the sort that's easy to pick back up and take away, or maybe they got eyes on this early on and, while our western-dictorcrats spent all year unhelpfully dicking about with how to most regulate & adulterate Bitcoin, maybe they saw an opportunity for the taking; I wonder.

[edit; typo & I'll be looking for your report about this proof you've got + the exchanges responses (I trust you've got hold of gox staff straight away on irc, no? MagicalTux weighed in with a word?]

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

[revans]

I posted yesterday that I have a paper coming out that proves not only BTC-C, but all major exchanges are engaged in creating a completely fictitious market. I have contacted the exchanges I have investigated for comment prior to publishing.

All major chinese exchanges, or all major exchanges period? Which exchanges did you investigate? Do you have any info that you can share with us now?

The paper focusses on  BTC-C and MtGox with data covering one month. The main manipulation is the use of false trades to move the market, there are also what I'm calling the run_up and run_down bots which work in conjunction with real trading action to move the price in whatever direction is desired by the exchange.

[RenegadeMind]

How do you get money in and out of their exchange? Advice on this matter? Thanks.

To get it out, just pull out bitcoins. It's very straight forward.

To put it in, just put in bitcoins.

You need to follow their procedures if you want to put in or pull out fiat. That, well, that's a different story. There are ways to do it, but you probably need to be in China for that.

[revans]

You know, I do find it odd that the Chinese state hasn't been inclined to place any restrictions upon Bitcoin (the most subversive technology on the planet) when they go to particularly extensive lengths to restrict pretty much everything else.  Maybe they just dropped the ball on this one, and recognise it's not really the sort that's easy to pick back up and take away, or maybe they got eyes on this early on and, while our western-dictorcrats spent all year unhelpfully dicking about with how to most regulate & adulterate Bitcoin, maybe they saw an opportunity for the taking; I wonder.

[edit; typo & I'll be looking for your report about this proof you've got + the exchanges responses (I trust you've got hold of gox staff straight away on irc, no? MagicalTux weighed in with a word?]

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

How can Bitcoin be a hedge against the dollar when the dollar is the only reason Bitcoin has any value? Ask yourself what would happen to Bitcoin's price if it became impossible to convert it into the state fiat you all claim to despise? It would drop like a stone. Bitcoin needs the USD because that is where it derives its value.

[Terpie]

You know, I do find it odd that the Chinese state hasn't been inclined to place any restrictions upon Bitcoin (the most subversive technology on the planet) when they go to particularly extensive lengths to restrict pretty much everything else.  Maybe they just dropped the ball on this one, and recognise it's not really the sort that's easy to pick back up and take away, or maybe they got eyes on this early on and, while our western-dictorcrats spent all year unhelpfully dicking about with how to most regulate & adulterate Bitcoin, maybe they saw an opportunity for the taking; I wonder.

[edit; typo & I'll be looking for your report about this proof you've got + the exchanges responses (I trust you've got hold of gox staff straight away on irc, no? MagicalTux weighed in with a word?]

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

How can Bitcoin be a hedge against the dollar when the dollar is the only reason Bitcoin has any value? Ask yourself what would happen to Bitcoin's price if it became impossible to convert it into the state fiat you all claim to despise? It would drop like a stone. Bitcoin needs the USD because that is where it derives its value.

No. The dollar is simply the path of least resistance to acquire bitcoin for many people. Bitcoin is valuable because it is useful to people. If what you are saying is true, then it would apply to everything that has a dollar market. I'm sure you don't think gold/oil/etc have value solely because they can convert to dollars.

[revans]

You know, I do find it odd that the Chinese state hasn't been inclined to place any restrictions upon Bitcoin (the most subversive technology on the planet) when they go to particularly extensive lengths to restrict pretty much everything else.  Maybe they just dropped the ball on this one, and recognise it's not really the sort that's easy to pick back up and take away, or maybe they got eyes on this early on and, while our western-dictorcrats spent all year unhelpfully dicking about with how to most regulate & adulterate Bitcoin, maybe they saw an opportunity for the taking; I wonder.

[edit; typo & I'll be looking for your report about this proof you've got + the exchanges responses (I trust you've got hold of gox staff straight away on irc, no? MagicalTux weighed in with a word?]

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

How can Bitcoin be a hedge against the dollar when the dollar is the only reason Bitcoin has any value? Ask yourself what would happen to Bitcoin's price if it became impossible to convert it into the state fiat you all claim to despise? It would drop like a stone. Bitcoin needs the USD because that is where it derives its value.

No. The dollar is simply the path of least resistance to acquire bitcoin for many people. Bitcoin is valuable because it is useful to people. If what you are saying is true, then it would apply to everything that has a dollar market. I'm sure you don't think gold/oil/etc have value solely because they can convert to dollars.

You're really comparing the thing that fuels civilisation and a metal which has been highly desirable for millennia and is irreplaceable in many industries with some numbers?

[Zooey]

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

Hmm; kinda lost as to how my intelligence quotient serves as any useful comparative, but you do articulate some lovely ideas.  I'm afraid I could never hope to match your aplomb.

[Barek]

As I said in the other thread, I can ALWAYS sell at those insane high price and get the CNY in my account within 24 hours. So the price is REAL. The volume is inflated simply due to free transaction.

Their site may be down from time to time, but that's nothing worse than gox or stamp

In addition to btcchina, I can also sell on other Chinese exchanges with similar price and received CNY withdraw too.

Agreed. (emphasis mine)

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

And another agreed. (minus some of the language)

[AmazonStuff]

May I define a new term "ponzi exchange".

[Spekulatius]

Dont know whether it has been said here before but look at it from that perspective:

There is a fierce competition going on down there right now: http://btckan.com/price

They all report their own volume and they all wanna become China's #1 exchange to dominate the BTC market, they already dropped all the fees, now how else can they get an edge over their competitors?
Correct, by suggesting they have the best liquidity. When you look at their order book depth u wonder how they can support those numbers. Some time ago there was an outrageous volume report by one of the smaller sites https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309602.msg3323479#msg3323479 that had only a few thousand Bitcoins in its orderbook but reported 100k BTC on a daily basis, for days!

If no one is checking on you and you could produce your own volume with zero fee phantom transactions, wouldnt you do it if all your competition does it?


from above cited thread, compare the reported volume and orderbook depth, this was not even the most outrageous report.

[trepper]

Bitcoin is valuable because it is useful to people. If what you are saying is true, then it would apply to everything that has a dollar market. I'm sure you don't think gold/oil/etc have value solely because they can convert to dollars.

Pretty  apagogical argument here 
But it seems you draw the wrong conclusion from it

It's a good proof of concept, but for now, what bitcoin is useful for? In the real world, I mean...

[xalex]

Bitcoin is valuable because it is useful to people. If what you are saying is true, then it would apply to everything that has a dollar market. I'm sure you don't think gold/oil/etc have value solely because they can convert to dollars.

Pretty  apagogical argument here 
But it seems you draw the wrong conclusion from it

It's a good proof of concept, but for now, what bitcoin is useful for? In the real world, I mean...

I ordered food for me and 11 friends online. Payed with a super easy to use Bitcoin app. While everyone was watching the transaction went trough in less then 3 seconds and the food was delivered half an hour later.
The food delivery company using BitPay probably payed a lot less in fees compared to the traditional methods we had before Bitcoin.

Everyone is happy. Me, my friends, the delivery company and BitPay.

[EABEAB]

As I said in the other thread, I can ALWAYS sell at those insane high price and get the CNY in my account within 24 hours. So the price is REAL. The volume is inflated simply due to free transaction.

Their site may be down from time to time, but that's nothing worse than gox or stamp

In addition to btcchina, I can also sell on other Chinese exchanges with similar price and received CNY withdraw too.

Agreed. (emphasis mine)

Maybe they are just fu**ing smarter than you. Maybe they realize that this technology could be a hedge against their US debt holdings. Or perhaps they just want Bitcoin innovations to come from China vs. some other country. I mean, China wants power. When it comes to finances they are actually very forward thinking.

And another agreed. (minus some of the language)

I use BtcChina via QT-Trader via BtcChina API, works great for the most part,
but often, and I mean often the connection to the API goes down and the WebSite
is off-line at the same time.

Happen to me last night when I cashed out to Cash / Yuan and the problem did not correct itself
until the next morning, I cashed out at $50,000 Yuan, in the morning when their site came back
on-line the market had raised to $54,000 Yuan, I have been Up-Side Down all day waiting for the
market to either lower itself or make a few good trades to get the coin back I lost, I was at 10 BTC
when the BtChina site went off line, now at the current market rate I'm at 9.3 BTC, even with these
problems it's hard to leave because the trades are FREE, but I'm beginning to ask myself are they
really FREE with missed opportunity costs (a 400 Yuan rise), started out with BiFinex and never had
site down problems except for once, surprised to hear that MtGox and BitStamp also have these problems.

But I make BTC Deposits and BTC WithDrawals from BtcChina all day with Zero Problems.
I would not call them a Scam or Fake Company, and as previously mention it was started by the previous
head of Wal-Mart China, and his Brother has invented "LiteCoin", really don't think they have to steal from AnyOne,
those guys have enough CASH already !