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Author Topic: The ethics of individually respected taint  (Read 1718 times)
dscotese (OP)
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November 19, 2013, 06:06:23 AM
 #1

Suppose that you find out that someone's laptop store - where they sell laptops made with uniquely colored metal cases - has been robbed, and you notice that someone is trying to sell a lot of these "designer" laptops. You can:
  • 1) Ignore the situation so as to avoid any trouble.
  • 2) Suggest to the seller that he seems to be fencing stolen laptops.
  • 3) Let others know that you suspect these laptops are stolen.
  • 4) Buy one, since they are being sold at a healthy discount.
  • 5) Go to the Police to report that you think you know who the thief is.

Most people simplify this to only two options, #5 and all the others put together.  They simplify it because they don't want responsibility.

I think the moral thing to do is talk to the seller, and then publish, assuming the seller proves guilty and unrepentant.  People like to argue against my position by assuming that it will lead to the government meddling of #5, which is a valid concern, but letting such an assumption prevent a good deed doesn't seem right to me.  Perhaps the answer is to decry government involvement (Lord knows I always do!), but at the same time, inform the thief and then others in order to help solve the same problem which sends baser people scrambling toward the government parasites.

The last option, I agree, is more horrible than the theft itself.  Government "justice" doesn't help heal wounds.  It makes them deeper and more destructive in the hope of justifying its own theft (taxation) by tickling our fancy for revenge.  The right way is to shun, ostracize, publish, and otherwise encourage the criminals to reverse their crime.  Reversing is pretty easy with Bitcoin.  The criminal can even negotiate some kind of reward for identifying a weakness in the security systems of the victim.

If I am ever a victim of a heist, I imagine I will offer miners a portion of what was stolen if A) it is ever returned, and B) they exclude transactions that use my stolen bitcoins (except the one to an address I provide, obviously).

There are already a lot of discussions around bitcoin heists.  I think some miners may feel that it is immoral to accept a transaction they believe to involve stolen bitcoins just to get the network fee, but it's too much work to filter them out.  It would be nice if mining software had the option to exclude transactions from particular addresses just because the miner feels that the bitcoin in them was stolen.  But that decision must be left to the miner!  So of course it would be horrible for the law to require that they filter out certain addresses, and miners would be morally obligated (in my opinion and that of Dr. King's - duty to break unjust laws and all) to ignore that law.  And let's plan to DDOS whatever govt website contains such addresses if they ever make such a law.

Is my position ethical?  Aside from the difficulty of informing the mining community of the offer, is there anything else that makes my plan impractical?  If there were a way to register a heist and assemble an ad hoc bitcoin jury to study the evidence, would you be interested in using this technique?  Why or why not?

To those who prefer to get the police involved: kindly fuck off :-)
To those who prefer do nothing: Please reconsider, as other people's use of bitcoin is loosening the bonds of monetary slavery in which central banks have trapped us all, and bitcoin heists are probably the biggest threat to its growing effect.

On the other hand, perhaps you feel that every victim of a bitcoin heist deserves what he gets for being sloppy.  I disagree, and maybe that's because I like helping too much.  Hmm...

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AnonyMint
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November 19, 2013, 06:35:36 AM
 #2

It is not just stolen coins, but anything illegal one can do and paying for it in BitCON, means due to Admiralty laws the government can seize all the coins involved from anyone who received them in a downstream transaction.

http://www.nestmann.com/civil-forfeiture-of-cash-it-could-happen-to-you

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Unfortunately, this strategy poses its own risks due to federal and state civil forfeiture laws. Law enforcement agencies consider cash holdings inherently suspicious. Under the topsy-turvy legal process of civil forfeiture, they can seize your cash if they believe that it's somehow connected to a crime.

Proving that your cash is connected to a crime is surprisingly easy to demonstrate. That's because 97% or more of cash circulating today contains tiny concentrations of narcotics residues—primarily cocaine. All police need to do is to bring in a drug-sniffing dog to inspect the cash.  If the dog alerts, police seize the cash. And, under civil forfeiture rules, it's up to you to prove that the cash has a legitimate origin.

Consider the case of Emiliano Gomez Gonzolez. During a traffic stop, Nebraska state troopers asked Gonzolez for permission to search his vehicle. During the search, the troopers found bundles of currency totaling $124,700. Based on a dog sniff, police seized all the money.

Gonzolez contested the forfeiture in court. Prosecutors neither convicted nor accused Gomez or any of the other owners of the seized cash of any crime. Nor did police find any drugs, drug paraphernalia, or drug records connected to the cash. Despite these facts, a federal appeals court upheld the confiscation of every dollar found in the vehicle.

In thousands of cases across the United States each year, police follow the same pattern. In a search of someone's home or vehicle, they discover a significant quantity of cash. They then bring in a dog to sniff the cash for the presence of drug residues. The dog alerts virtually 100% of the time. This supposedly gives police probable cause to seize the cash under state or federal civil forfeiture laws.

Owners of property subject to civil forfeiture find themselves in an Alice-in-Wonderland legal landscape where the property seized is accused of a crime, rather than the owner. The owners must follow obscure rules that originate in Admiralty law, with which most attorneys aren't familiar. Under these rules, the seized property is presumed guilty, and it's up to its owner to demonstrate that the property is innocent. (Yes, it's bizarre, but it's the law!) Since obtaining legal representation in a civil forfeiture case typically requires a legal retainer of $10,000 or more, most victims of this vicious procedure never contest the seizure.

Here is where we are headed...

Seems most are breathing a sigh of relief thinking that the hearing added no push for new regulations or laws. What they said was the existing AML and KYC is sufficient for now.

Hello? KYC means what? Know Your Customer.

That means merchants required to know who you are. That means reporting to the government.

Electronic currency on a public ledger means they can ramp up these existing laws to require e-file reporting on smaller and smaller transactions.

The NSA is mopping everything. Soon the FinCEN or DHS or... will be mopping up all transaction identities.

If you aren't whitelisted, the merchant can't accept you.

666 anyone?

Don't be so naive. These transformations move slowly enough that you boil like a frog.

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November 19, 2013, 06:46:34 AM
 #3

I'm not well versed in how Bitcoin works (sad I know), so I have this question to ask before putting deep thought into the question:

How many miners must collude to completely prevent a transaction from occurring?

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November 19, 2013, 08:03:49 AM
 #4

I'm not well versed in how Bitcoin works (sad I know), so I have this question to ask before putting deep thought into the question:

How many miners must collude to completely prevent a transaction from occurring?

100% or > 50% depending your perspective of the outcome of the dynamic game theory.

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PenAndPaper
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November 19, 2013, 08:09:24 AM
 #5

Laptops are not fungible. Concerns around colored coins are about fungibility.
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November 19, 2013, 08:25:13 AM
 #6

Laptops are not fungible. Concerns around colored coins are about fungibility.

Don't conflate colored coins with tainted coins. This thread is about the latter.

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rat
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November 19, 2013, 08:41:44 AM
 #7


I came here cuz i thought there would be taint.

i am disappoint.
bitcoinminer
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November 19, 2013, 03:30:52 PM
 #8


I came here cuz i thought there would be taint.

i am disappoint.

I also came here for riveting discussion of the taint.  Feeling such disappoint to.

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
dscotese (OP)
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November 19, 2013, 09:58:28 PM
 #9

...the government [this reads "highly organized criminals who rely on the stupidity of the masses to do violence out in the open without fear of punishment to get whatever they want" to me] can seize all the coins involved

To whatever degree the masses are NOT stupid, the government must use smoke and mirrors to look like they are doing good for society. However, I am interested in ethics and morality, not legislation and thuggery, regardless of how acceptable it is.

As an argument against the use of taint, the point you make argues for not using bitcoin at all, since the ledger is open to the public, and the taint is already traceable.  The issue of individuals taking action in the face of evidence they believe marks a transactor as criminal moves away from the collective (government) and toward individuality, which is exactly the direction our species needs to go.

I suspect people are afraid to answer my question because we have been scared away from taking justice into our own hands, even though that is where it can be realized in a practical, humane, and ethical way, as opposed to the theft (taxes) and other violence the government uses under the pretense that such unethical means can help.  If we don't challenge, shun, and ostracize criminals into behaving better, the government parasites will butt in and make everything worse.  Hence my questions.

Good answer on the question of the effective portion of miners to completely prevent a transaction from occurring.  However, it only needs to be prevented for as long as it takes to make the criminal realize that doing the right thing might be better for him in the long run.

I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my valueAvoid supporting terrorism!
Satoshi Nakamoto: "He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules."
AnonyMint
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November 19, 2013, 10:01:16 PM
 #10

The better solution is to make an anonymous coin. Then no more taint. So we are not tied together in knots. K.I.S.S.

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bitcoinminer
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November 20, 2013, 01:17:34 AM
 #11

Because it taint the balls and it taint the ass...

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
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November 20, 2013, 04:39:31 AM
 #12

I'm not well versed in how Bitcoin works (sad I know), so I have this question to ask before putting deep thought into the question:

How many miners must collude to completely prevent a transaction from occurring?

100% or > 50% depending your perspective of the outcome of the dynamic game theory.

Answer for the normal human who is not versed in dynamic game theory:

> 50%.
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