Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?

[AnonyMint]

I have to agree, that bitcoin has dynamics which resemble a pyramid scheme. But that would change, as soon as you are able to pay all your bills and taxes with bitcoin and earn them directly without the need to convert to fiat somewhere along the transaction chain.

For this there needs to be mainstream adoption, so IMO the only possibility for BTC to survive as currency is that all participants follow the mentality "One for all, all for one".

Honestly, I would like to believe it, if there wasn't so much greed in human nature....

Distributing the mining coin rewards to millions of people who download it with one-click will do that.

And the investors can buy from them. So no problem the greed will help then.

Bitcoin is the inverse (converse)!

The investors mine the coins, then the masses are expected to buy them. brain dead design for a coin.

[AnonyMint]

Bitcoin is not for the masses.  It never will be.  What the point in trying to buy food, clothes or housing anonymously?

Why is the only point anonymous?

The point is to not use fiat which gives control to the cartels who capture our governments.

Also anonymity is nice just because you don't want Obamacare computer telling you that you bought too many pizzas this week and need to eat cucumbers for the rest of the month. Did you see Obamacare is forcing men to have Maternity care insurance?  

We need to break the back of the socialism before it drags us down into the gutter of waste and failure.

Bitcoin is for people that fiat currency does not provide an adequate medium of exchange.  Drugs, gambling, remittances, avoiding exchange controls - these are all areas where Bitcoin is useful.

And if you don't get widespread use as currency, then government can pigeon-hole you. Because the masses won't care if the government fucks your currency which they don't use any way.

And as such, Bitcoin users don't give a damn if the value goes back to where it was in 2009.  The transactions will still go through.

No either the security will decrease so it can be 51% attacked easily or the transaction fees will be going very high such as 50% (especially if happens when coin rewards have diminished).

You didn't realize that your future depends on Bitcoin not declining in price!

So now you see the currency is lost when the price crashes! NO INTRINSIC VALUE.

All you seem to be saying is that you want to replace one set of early adopters with another.  Again, what's the altcoin going to do that Bitcoin doesn't?  

I just refuted that with a slamdunk.

Now you are thinking "Oh shit, Anonymint is correct".  

I am going to eat. Be back in an 1.5 hours.

[jackmackg]

Looking at your posts and the others in this topic. You could say its a new scheme that uses many characteristics of the others.

[AnonyMint]

You can't see the writing-on-the-wall? Focus your crystal ball on this and estimate the future...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-20/bitcoin-is-still-doomed.html

Yet a common theme they all expressed was that such currencies were something they'll be able to control -- something that can be monitored and policed -- and not an anarchic and impenetrable system that drug dealers and money launderers and tax evaders can hide behind. So: The feds are paying attention.

For future users of virtual currencies, that's a good thing. It'll offer consumer protections and predictability. For Bitcoin, it's a problem.
To the extent using Bitcoin has any benefits now -- convenience, cost-efficiency, putative anonymity -- it's because authorities haven't been taking it very seriously. As officialdom becomes more assertive, Bitcoin will become more difficult and expensive to use, and less anonymous. That's because complying with money-transmission laws such as the Bank Secrecy Act is burdensome and costly and annoying. Bitcoin exchanges are starting to find this out. As the government's tentacles spread through the ecosystem, it's hard to see how Bitcoin will retain any advantages over normal methods of payment.

But its price is booming! you might say. That's true: It's now trading at about $536 per coin, after briefly hitting $900 yesterday. It may go much higher. If you got in a month ago (when it was valued at about $186) and planned to make a speculative buck, that's good news. If you expected it to become a reliable currency, it's terrible news. No asset that fluctuates so erratically can plausibly work as a medium of exchange. If a retailer accepts bitcoins for a product and the Bitcoin price declines sharply the next day, he's made a terrible mistake. If the price increases sharply, the buyer has made a terrible mistake. That's why BitcoinShop.US, an online retailer that prices its products in bitcoins, has seen its orders plummet 20 percent this week.

Here's a stark description of the problem: "The relative lack of acceptance of Bitcoins in the retail and commercial marketplace limits the ability of end-users to pay for goods and services with Bitcoins. A lack of expansion by Bitcoins into retail and commercial markets, or a contraction of such use, may result in increased volatility or a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price."

Actually, Bernanke said "virtual currencies" may hold long-term promise, which is more to the point. Virtual currencies of some kind should eventually become a great boon to economies and consumers, especially to the poor. A digital currency without the rickety infrastructure, deflationary bias, security flaws, disappearing exchanges, regressive money-creation mechanism, and luster of criminality and paranoia that attaches to Bitcoin would be a welcome innovation.
It won't be nearly as entertaining. But it might actually work.

[AnonyMint]

Bitcoin is not for the masses.  It never will be.

I think we can see what kind of future Hawker wants for us.

He wants a limited hangout for drugs and illegal sales of MMO into China.

He doesn't want the rest of the world to benefit from this innovation.

Very selfish man who got 1000s of coins from CPU mining of Bitcoin before GPUs and ASICs took over. Then he doesn't want us to make an altcoin that can offer that permanently to all people of the world via download.

These are the type of people who want to ruin the world with their greed.

Now we see how one early adopter thinks. Very disappointing.

We must stop them by outcompeting with them. Leave them with their silly Bitcoin and let them wallow in it, or they can come join us once they realize they were rendered irrelevant.

Technology and open source is not a monopoly. It is not a limited hangout.

Fruits to the one who brings it to the masses.

I know this because I did it (Coolpage.com 1 million users in 2 years when internet was 10x smaller), the author of Firefox did it, etc..

[porcupine87]

Bitcoin is completly transparent which no Ponzi Schema can be. Ponzi Schemes require a lack of transperency!

[AnonyMint]

Bitcoin is completly transparent which no Ponzi Schema can be. Ponzi Schemes require a lack of transperency!

Been refuted already upthread. And you did not address the fact that Bitcoin is a pyramid-ponzi.

I will delete any more posts which have not quoted and replied to existing refutation upthread, if they are repeating some point that has already been discussed.

You must read the entire thread before posting.

[AnonyMint]

Copy of what I am sending to Hawker in PM.

You think the government is going to let your limited hangout (drugs) coin not pay taxes?

The real plan was laid out by Larry Summers, Paul Krugman, Bernanke, and the ECB this week:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/17/negative-interest-rates-eliminating-cash-the-summers-solution/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/21/negative-interest-rates-coming-soon-to-a-bank-near-you/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/20/the-bitcoin-hearing/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/19/congressional-hearings-on-bitcoin/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/21/will-electronic-money-be-deflationary/

Read it and weep.

Impaler I realized this is not the same as demurrage, because they will nationalize the bank accounts and retirement plans, so you won't be able to put the "savings" into motion.  This is all on official government documents such as the new bail-in regulations. No conspiracy nut stuff, it is all ready to put into action in next year or two.

[jackmackg]

You can't see the writing-on-the-wall? Focus your crystal ball on this and estimate the future...

Was this to me? I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my post.

[AnonyMint]

You can't see the writing-on-the-wall? Focus your crystal ball on this and estimate the future...

Was this to me? I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my post.

No I was debating with Hawker in PM and posting some of my findings here to the public thread. I appreciated your post Btw.

[jackmackg]

No I was debating with Hawker in PM and posting some of my findings here to the public thread. I appreciated your post Btw.

Oh, my bad. Just wanted to make sure.

[An amorous cow-herder]

Bitcoin developers refuse to change the coin supply curve and make transaction fees low forever.

And the ASICs existing miners will never let Bitcoin be changed to CPU-only. Impossible to fix that in Bitcoin. Too late.

They will not listen.

Sorry.

Well, i am really glad they arent listening to you. CPU only? Eh?
Right, and the next botnet steals all coins via a 51% attack. The presence of ASICs has pretty much thwarted the potential threat presented by a malicous botnet.

[AnonyMint]

Bitcoin developers refuse to change the coin supply curve and make transaction fees low forever.

And the ASICs existing miners will never let Bitcoin be changed to CPU-only. Impossible to fix that in Bitcoin. Too late.

They will not listen.

Sorry.

Well, i am really glad they arent listening to you. CPU only? Eh?
Right, and the next botnet steals all coins via a 51% attack. The presence of ASICs has pretty much thwarted the potential threat presented by a malicous botnet.

Now the pools and a few big players can take over. Btw a 51% attack can't steal coins. You are not qualified to speak, because you don't even know Bitcoin 101.

The botnets won't work with CPU-only mining because it uses all the main memory and user will realize his computer is captured. Very dangeous for the botnets to run it.  They loose their bots.

Also why would I care if botnets mine, as it adds security. It is only a problem if one botnet can get 51% which won't be possible if million people download your client.

Take your ASIC investment and insert where the sun don't shine.

[AnonyMint]

If you are more in favour of the free market than me, then stop worrying about the masses.  

When I say "masses" I mean masses of people like me. You see from the poll in my thread there are 13% who think like me.

13% of 7 billion = 910 million

[AnonyMint]

Winner.

And yet I answer...

If we agree with this, we can ask ourselves if Bitcoin falls in one of those categories :
1. Ponzi scheme
2. Pyramid scheme
3. Economic bubble

My opinion (*) :
1. No (even Anonymint agrees).

No I don't agree that ponzi requires a central con man. I think the definition only says that later investors fund earlier and no intrinsic value.

2. No. The system can work without new participants. It worked 3 years ago (you could buy pizzas), it still works today (you can buy a lot more stuff), it will still work tomorrow whatever the exchange rate is.

No it can't. I refuted that in spades:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=340686.msg3663722#new

3. Yes, probably. People are putting great expectations in Bitcoin and maybe not all of them will be fulfilled (the first one being an always increasing price).

Much worse than that. Nearly all will lose everything. And they will lose their freedom too. Mark my word.

(*) : we can only have opinions here.
Most of the debate is about "is Bicoin a fraud ?".
You can not just yell "fraud". ; you have to prove that :
- someone (with a name and address) is doing something illegal in his country of residence,
- and that he is doing it on purpose.

All the people saying Bitcoin is a good investment are a fraud.

When everyone is destroyed, then they will all agree it is a fraud and start pointing fingers.

Enjoy your freedom in the meantime and prepare for a long time behind bars soon.

People change when they go from feeling good, rich to feeling angry, poor.

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

[An amorous cow-herder]

Now the pools and a few big players can take over. Btw a 51% attack can't steal coins. You are not qualified to speak, because you don't even know Bitcoin 101.

Yeah, but transfer bitcoins and revoke transactions. Doesnt change the point.

Also why would I care if botnets mine, as it adds security. It is only a problem if one botnet can get 51% which won't be possible if million people download your client.

And the biggest botnets had 10M+ bots connected. Considering the amount of people mining that can easily be topped by a botnet.

[AnonyMint]

Now the pools and a few big players can take over. Btw a 51% attack can't steal coins. You are not qualified to speak, because you don't even know Bitcoin 101.

Yeah, but transfer bitcoins and revoke transactions. Doesnt change the point.

50+% attack can transfer Bitcoins and it can't really revoke older transactions. Definitely not before last checkpoint and someone always has a copy of the older history.

50+% it is a big problem and we don't want it to happen.

Also why would I care if botnets mine, as it adds security. It is only a problem if one botnet can get 51% which won't be possible if million people download your client.

And the biggest botnets had 10M+ bots connected. Considering the amount of people mining that can easily be topped by a botnet.

Botnets are entirely not a problem, if the coin only allows pools.

[polarhei]

Bitcoin supply is limited, the amount set is known from source code.

If for ponzi scheme, then the flow will be very oddly than bitcoin as a typical ponzi scheme obscures more information  than bitcoin, also there is only one node for the game. Bitcoin is, just like DSP, so if more people join, then the system will be better as the system will replace majority of transaction systems very soon as all people can monitor the flow.

[AnonyMint]

Botnets are entirely not a problem, if the coin only allows pools.

Weee, then the CnC server for the botnet plays the role of pool operator. You are really undermining (no pun intended) valid arguments by providing irrelevant facts.

You haven't thought this out grasshopper.

[AnonyMint]

Bitcoin supply is limited, the amount set is known from source code.

If for ponzi scheme, then the flow will be very oddly than bitcoin as a typical ponzi scheme obscures more information  than bitcoin, also there is only one node for the game. Bitcoin is, just like DSP, so if more people join, then the system will be better as the system will replace majority of transaction systems very soon as all people can monitor the flow.

That doesn't make any sense. Read the thread.

The transparency point was refuted on page 1.

The "majority of transactions" has been refuted in the recent page.

You would need to refute those prior refutations. I almost deleted your post because it violates the warning I put saying you must read the thread. But I decided to give this warning one last time.