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Author Topic: Ideas for more efficient distribution of money?  (Read 13048 times)
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November 30, 2013, 09:52:09 PM
 #161

In a capitalist economy, technological improvement and its consequent increased production augment the amount of material wealth (use value) in society, whilst simultaneously diminishing the economic value of the same wealth, thereby diminishing the rate of profit. - Das Kapital

The gold standard was reigning when this text was written, with a hard currency system backed up by gold in which expansion of production had self-limiting effect through currency appreciation. The emboldened text is not valid for a properly organized fiat currency system in which producers profits are no longer diminishing with technological improvements and innovations...

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November 30, 2013, 10:13:22 PM
 #162

The thread has truly deteriorated to be a socialists' lair. I had high hopes for this altcoin in the beginning, but now it seems so obvious that it is going nowhere.. Is there any way to unsubscribe the thread?  Sad
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November 30, 2013, 10:18:50 PM
 #163

The thread has truly deteriorated to be a socialists' lair. I had high hopes for this altcoin in the beginning, but now it seems so obvious that it is going nowhere.. Is there any way to unsubscribe the thread?  Sad

I am confused as to why you think AnonyMint's proposed ideas are socialist. If anything they are the antithesis of socialism.

I quoted Marx only to drive home the point that you can start from a valid critique of the current economic system and then end up in
a solution that is far worse then the disease. I see that point did not come across the way I intended it to.

Edit: I removed the Marx quote as it was tangential to the overall post and obviously not transmitting the idea I was trying to convey.


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November 30, 2013, 10:29:44 PM
 #164

I am confused as to why you think AnonyMint's proposed ideas are socialist. If anything they are the antithesis of socialism.

I quoted Marx only to drive home the point that you can start from a valid critique of the current economic system and then end up in
a solution that is far worse then the disease. I see that point did not come across the way I intended it to.

AnonyMint invents problems for Bitcoin that just are not there. The more I have considered the distribution model, the more ingenious it feels. In the beginning I supported a "more equitable" altcoin but then realized that it just cannot be done any other way (or let's say all the proposed alternatives are inferior: the further from Bitcoin, the more inferior). So now I think that:

- Bitcoin is doing just fine
- The alt would not fly anyway.

He has the exact opposite opinion, which I think is unfounded in truth, and that he is actually "butthurt" to have missed the 100x of 2013.

Most people here know even less about economics than me, so quoting marx may be a good idea since they don't understand it at all.
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November 30, 2013, 10:38:38 PM
 #165

I am confused as to why you think AnonyMint's proposed ideas are socialist. If anything they are the antithesis of socialism.

I quoted Marx only to drive home the point that you can start from a valid critique of the current economic system and then end up in
a solution that is far worse then the disease. I see that point did not come across the way I intended it to.

AnonyMint invents problems for Bitcoin that just are not there. The more I have considered the distribution model, the more ingenious it feels. In the beginning I supported a "more equitable" altcoin but then realized that it just cannot be done any other way (or let's say all the proposed alternatives are inferior: the further from Bitcoin, the more inferior). So now I think that:

- Bitcoin is doing just fine
- The alt would not fly anyway.

He has the exact opposite opinion, which I think is unfounded in truth, and that he is actually "butthurt" to have missed the 100x of 2013.

Most people here know even less about economics than me, so quoting marx may be a good idea since they don't understand it at all.

I highly recommend reading the following three links

http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Demise%20of%20Finance,%20Rise%20of%20Knowledge.html
http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Understand%20Everything%20Fundamentally.html
http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html

Whatever you think about AnonyMint's chance of succeeding with his coin there is no denying that he has some insight that is worth seriously considering.

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November 30, 2013, 10:57:14 PM
 #166

Hey 7 years ago I already thought he's the coolest guy in the universe.
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November 30, 2013, 11:08:27 PM
 #167

Hey 7 years ago I already thought he's the coolest guy in the universe.

If you read the links above and find flaws let me know.
I am a very critical reader and yet I find myself sitting here going yep I pretty much agree with all of this.
That's almost unheard of for me so I read it all a second time and still nothing I could find fault with.

In my opinion anyone smart enough to come up with the above material may just be able to pull off a "bitcoin killer"
At the very least I think it would be unwise not to keep following this thread.

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December 01, 2013, 01:05:14 AM
 #168

The way a programmer feels when he has something so awesome for the world and wants to share the source code but realizes he can't (yet) is probably how a boxer feels the week before the fight. The itch to "get it on" is just unfathomable.

I very much admire Manny Pacquiao because he doesn't talk smack. He lets his fists do the talking. Unfortunately I had to stir the pot here in the forum to open a few minds, just a few, so that an altcoin can get its initial support and grows from there as the rest such as Risto will be late because their pre-frontal cortex has shutdown probably due to the greed. Risto is correct that the only fast way to grow adoption of a crypto-currency is via investment gains. And he judges everything by that one-sided, myopic criteria. I am correct about the inability of Bitcoin to transition to a currency and also its long-term technical vulnerability. Thus the opportunity to defeat the fiat NWO outcome is very slim even with a perfect altcoin. Yet I am trying any way. We've got to try. Hopefully at least we can use that altcoin in a parallel economy even if the NWO outcome proceeds for the masses. Thus it has been designed to be able to operate in parallel.

Risto is entirely incorrect about socialism. He is conflating government redistribution with monetary necessity (also follow the sub-link in the linked post).

I think they forget (or didn't know) that I have already been the sole author on million user success commercial software. I was one of the first few authors on Corel Painter also but not the primary two authors, which was originally Fractal Design Painter in 1993 the world's first natural media paint software. I did that in between Word Up and Cool Page.

Nevertheless I hate vaporware.

We must hurry with an altcoin, as Bitcoin is being revealed now to be a Ponzi scheme by Ron Paul and Mises Institute, so our opportunity to launch one that is not a Ponzi scheme will soon be destroyed, just as I predicted with the government take over of the role of digital money. The end for Bitcoin could come as soon as January 2014. Although I am still betting the greater fools won't hear the above, so maybe as late as end of 2015.

Hey 7 years ago I already thought he's the coolest guy in the universe.

Actually thank you for the sentiments and I knew that, as well appreciated the liquidity you brought me at that time and was happy to give you some suggestions at that time, but we diverged in our activities and goals. You may think this again. Let's pray Bitcoin doesn't crash to $500 before going higher so you don't reinvest that $1 million (1000+ BTC) back in Bitcoin's ponzi again. So you won't be too distraught when the bitter end for Bitcoin comes. I do note you are diversified, e.g. precious metals. But the precious metals are going lower before they make new all time highs (after 2015) the G20 is likely going to confiscate them. So don't count your eggs before they hatch.

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December 01, 2013, 03:13:43 AM
 #169

I am confused as to why you think AnonyMint's proposed ideas are socialist.

Doesn't the title of this thread and the first couple lines of the OP make this obvious?

Not really, the OP is asking about the possible distribution of a new or soon to be released cryptocurrency not redistributing peoples current bitcoins or dollars. OP's actual ideas are extremely anti collectivist/socialist.

Also you must admit that having a truly anonymous currency without any way to track you assets would make taxes very hard
to collect. Sure you would have to pay something to justify your lifestyle but you could probably get by with reporting a fraction
of your net worth ie the person making $800,000k a month could pretend he is only making $150,000k

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December 01, 2013, 03:40:21 AM
 #170

I am in agreement with the progress of the dissection of the issues by Impaler and CoinCube. I will add my thoughts to hopefully attain a higher-level agreement.

Mint:  If your arguing that hard money will be rejected by the people and can only be forcefully imposed by government that is indeed a more nuanced position then I had originally though you had.  But I would still disagree.

I believe that individuals DO crave hard money, everyone knows that if they possess a harder form of money then everyone else they will be advantaged.  It's like the classic prisoners-dilemma where you win by betraying your partner, hard money is when everyone is betraying everyone.  This is why people (particularly 'libertarian' types who view other people only as means to their own ends) are attracted to things like BTC, their is a natural greedy response to acquire hard money like a 'sweet tooth' that makes us eat too much sugar, the systemic effects are terrible but most people do not think systemically so we end up stuck in a sub-optimal situation.  Basically I see a logical bottom-up explanation for how we got here so I don't attribute it to a top-down cabal, I always turn to the conspiratorial theories LAST.

Please consider that the truth is neither either or. There is a symbiosis of bottom-up and top-down which is operating in waves cascading effects from one to the other throughout history.

Indeed the people individually want the hard money advantage for themself, yet they hate the collective outcome and since they don't see that the source of the problem is their individual desires, they have only one possible way to cash in on their grievances-- government redistribution. So the bottom-up is driving the top-down, yet the top-down is also driving the bottom-up as I will explain below. There is no conspiracy theory, it is just the way it works systemically.

It is really a sad state-of-humanity at this point.

Their are certainly instances in history were central authority forces hard money onto the populous (usually by taking away soft-money) but we can see from the rabid BTC zealots that exist that the imposition of hard money will be meet with Cheers and Applause by large swaths of the masses.  Thus is it not JUST a problem of government, and particularly now that so much inertia is built up behind it.  Most people only know our current money system which is harder then it should be (BTC is hyper-hard by comparison).  Given the existence of gold as an easily mined, easily traded commodity it is very easy to see how it became money all over the world, no central authority is necessary to do that.  Most negative government action has been in the form of suppression of alternatives to hard money (or the softening of the money standard ) rather then to create the norm of hard money in the first place.

Very insightful how you've noticed that the top-down controllers would at times prefer the money to be harder not softer. And they do this not only by limiting the expansion of the money supply at times, but also by overexpanding it when they are concentrating into their own pockets as with the current QE.

There is no mathematical correlation of expansion of the money supply and inflation in the Quantity Theory of Money. That recently popular notion appears to be propaganda fed to the hard-on money bugs in order to encourage them to destroy themselves and foster the hamster wheel for society.

...

It instead focused on Free-market which were never the problem, such markets are such an engine of wealth creation that people living under interest AND Free-markets ended up materially wealthier even with the vast 'sucking up' of their productivity to elites.  Meanwhile the political elite in a Centrally planned economies skim wealth in a much more obvious fashion and were soon seen to be parasitic with no benefits.  In the 'Capitalist' nations the Free-markets benefits are never distinguished from the parasitic interest system, so most people think of the Capitalist economy as one monolithic system and defend parasitic interest payments as a necessary part of free-markets, indeed if Hard-money is a hidden axiom then interest IS indeed necessary for any investment and growth.

Indeed the masses conflate everything. IQ is a bell curve, and even high IQ doesn't distribute uniformly on each issue. So as one of the elite said, "only one in a million can" see the truth.

And the top-control profiteers have every incentive to continue feeding them propaganda and educating them in state-schools where they can form their minds.

And while I consider myself a Socialist in the broader sense, I have always preferred Taxation for the creation of public-good available without means testing to all members of society over crude wealth-redistribution.  Redistribution tends to be favored by the financial elites for acts to reinforce class distinction between 'net tax payers' and 'net recipients', where as public goods erase class distinctions.

But taxation can never be fair because as you see above, the bottom-up demands a top-down. And Mancur Olsen's The Logic Of Collective Action explains that the top-down will always privatize the profits and socialize the losses.

I believe that if we eliminated the hidden wealth pumping of interest then we would no longer even entertain wealth-redistribution as a solution to the remaining wealth disparities.  But we would sill desire Public-goods and hopefully create them in optimum amounts.

But surely you must realize that human nature will never allow this to be true, because as you've identified upthread, the masses will always love hard money and they don't correlate this with the negative collective (systemic) effects. And you never teach them otherwise because IQ is not uniform and not even uniform on each issue for the high IQ.

Thus government will always fill that power vacuum of the incapability of the masses to comprehend.

The only possible solution would be a technological one that eliminates the ability of the masses to harm themselves with their own ignorance.

My question for you Mint is what makes you confident that starving governments via an anonymous coin would necessarily improve things. I agree with your underlying premise that we appear to be in a cycle of boom and bust based on finance/fractional banking/debt -> collectivism -> collapse -> gold standard -> restart cycle again. However at the end of each cycle so far knowledge has advanced and passive capital has declined compared to the same point in the cycle before it aka progress.

Removing the governments ability to tax will create other problems such as the inability to regulate and prevent tragedy of the commons type situations that require collective action.

It is impossible for an anonymous coin to make brick and mortal transactions anonymous. The government will always be able to tax the industrial age economy.

My effort is targeted at the new virtual economy I see coming, wherein a recent Oxford study predicts 45% of all existing jobs will be replaced with computerization automation by 2033 (the year Martin Armstrong's Pi model and thus I expect the sovereign debt crisis to have ended).

I see we the hitech knowledge workers taking over the world over the next 20 years. That is sufficient time to ramp up the new currency.

So let the government and the masses have their old world economy. They will have plenty of time to fade away slowly and/or adjust and migrate to the new economy.

Government can become privatized. We don't need government for anything, not for roads, not for schools, nothing. I am a minanarchist.

Give me an example of something we need government for and I will explain why I think it can be done better by private enterprise and competition.

Impaler pointed out that the masses conflate the free market with the failure that the masses causes on themselves with hard money and government. The free market is not the problem, rather it is the solution.

Edit: see the new flying car that already has a working prototype.

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December 01, 2013, 03:46:35 AM
 #171


Bitcoins were distributed by a free market. How can not thinking that the distribution is proper be anything but a criticism of the free market?

They seem socialist-anarchist to me. (To the extent such a thing is possible, anyway.)

Certainly not any harder than it already is. We already have such a currency. The US dollar. And cash businesses get caught hiding income all the time.

If you don't plan on actually spending the money...well then you can probably come up with a perfectly legal tax shelter so that you don't owe taxes on it in the first place.

The OP criticism's of Bitcoins coin distribution is that its distribution will prevent it from ever succeeding as a functional currency. He is not advocating forced redistribution of bitcoins or changing bitcoins only that bitcoin is flawed and that a better system can be designed. His argument is unrelated to the free markets.

OP's ideas are definitely not socialist read his links above if you doubt me. I am not sure yet about the anarchist part I am still making up my mind on that one.

So you don't think that an anonymous coin that cannot be seized or frozen or tracked by the government will make taxes harder to collect? Sure government will still try and in some cases succeed but tax revenues are sure to decline if something like this takes off.

Edit: AnonyMint is a minanarchist see post above so I will concede that point =)
 

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December 01, 2013, 04:09:23 AM
 #172

I am confused as to why you think AnonyMint's proposed ideas are socialist.

Doesn't the title of this thread and the first couple lines of the OP make this obvious?

Not really, the OP is asking about the possible distribution of a new or soon to be released cryptocurrency not redistributing peoples current bitcoins or dollars.

Bitcoins were distributed by a free market. How can not thinking that the distribution is proper be anything but a criticism of the free market?

Coin rewards are diminishing in Bitcoin. Transaction fees are doomed to failure.

There is absolutely no sense in correlating the expansion of the money supply with socialism. The antithesis actually! See my prior post and the post at the link above and the sub-linked posts.

Also you must admit that having a truly anonymous currency without any way to track you assets would make taxes very hard
to collect.

Certainly not any harder difficult than it already is. We already have such a currency. The US dollar. And cash businesses get caught hiding income all the time.

I don't know if you've noticed the western governments have been phasing out cash. There are no more $10,000, $1000 bills. Ditto I believe 1000 Euro bills recently phased out. You can get less and less money from the ATMs in Europe per day. Etc. I had a post recently in my archives where I provided all the links on the plans of the USA and EU to create an electronic tracking currency and eliminate cash entirely, so they can charge you a negative interest as a tax to pay for the coming global debt implosion.

Also due to Admiralty Law, the governments are seizing cash as contraband in both the USA and EU. I heard of people crossing the borders in EU with cash or gold and losing it all for no reason.

Sure you would have to pay something to justify your lifestyle but you could probably get by with reporting a fraction
of your net worth ie the person making $800,000k a month could pretend he is only making $150,000k

Not if the person wants to spend the $800K/month on something other than black market goods/services. Not without significantly risking going to jail, anyway.

Indeed the next 20 years is not going to be about flaunting your wealth. It is going to be jail time for those who do, because the 99% is going to be rabid against the 1%.

But the world is going to be so broken and bankrupt after 2016, that you won't need much wealth to live like a King.

Right now the objective is to preserve wealth, not gains. The fools are going to lose what they have trying to gamble.

If you don't plan on actually spending the money...well then you can probably come up with a perfectly legal tax shelter

Everything will be illegal even what was legal. You simply don't understand in history what happens when there is a global debt crisis where the entire western world is bankrupt. All the western countries have total debt-to-GDP ratios exceeding 300%. Even China and Japan do. The BRICs do too, once you count the way their debts will rise due to all the dollar bonds and hot money  infux they've received from QE ending up there.

offshore tax haven.

There won't be any physical havens.  All the countries are involved in this global debt implosion coming.

Of course there will be exceptions. But for most of us, we won't be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. Most of us will be caught by the preponderance of badness coming. It is simply probability.

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December 01, 2013, 04:10:11 AM
 #173

My effort is targeted at the new virtual economy I see coming, wherein a recent Oxford study predicts 45% of all existing jobs will be replaced with computerization automation by 2033 (the year Martin Armstrong's Pi model and thus I expect the sovereign debt crisis to have ended).

I see we the hitech knowledge workers taking over the world over the next 20 years. That is sufficient time to ramp up the new currency.

So let the government and the masses have their old world economy. They will have plenty of time to fade away slowly and/or adjust and migrate to the new economy.

Government can become privatized. We don't need government for anything, not for roads, not for schools, nothing. I am a minanarchist.

Give me an example of something we need government for and I will explain why I think it can be done better by private enterprise and competition.

Impaler pointed out that the masses conflate the free market with the failure that the masses causes on themselves with hard money and government. The free market is not the problem, rather it is the solution.

Edit: see the new flying car that already has a working prototype.

From Wikipedia
Minarchism (also known as minimal statism) is a political philosophy. It is variously defined by sources. In the strictest sense, it holds that states ought to exist (as opposed to anarchy), that their only legitimate function is the protection of individuals from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud, and that the only legitimate governmental institutions are the military, police, and courts. In the broadest sense, it also includes fire departments, prisons, the executive, and legislatures as legitimate government functions.

So after calling for backup from wikipedia (as my knowledge of Minarchism is limited I would point out that police, the court system, the military, as well as a legislature to legislate certain pollution laws (no dumping industrial toxins in drinking water) are areas where I see a need for government currently.

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December 01, 2013, 04:18:06 AM
 #174

CoinCube to the extent that needs to be the case, the collective/government can get funding from the physical economy that can't be anonymous.

I see some ying and yang balance ahead. It will sort itself out. There are no absolutes in the universe.

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December 01, 2013, 04:22:57 AM
 #175

"Give me an example of something we need government for and I will explain why I think it can be done better by private enterprise and competition."

I'd say that's anarchist, not minarchist.

See my prior post where I see ying and yang and the balance will sort itself out. I don't strive for absolutes; they don't exist.

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December 01, 2013, 04:25:23 AM
 #176

CoinCube to the extent that needs to be the case, the collective/government can get funding from the physical economy that can't be anonymous.

I see some ying and yang balance ahead. It will sort itself out. There are no absolutes in the universe.

Fair enough. Surprisingly I find myself converted.
Lead on AnonyMint I will follow you into the new world order  Cheesy


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December 01, 2013, 04:33:43 AM
 #177

He thinks the free market got it wrong. He thinks he's right, and everyone else is wrong. This is pretty typical of socialists.

A free market is competition. We have mania which is a manifestation of the same ignorance that drives socialism. See the upthread discussion between Impaler and myself. Even the Austrian economists have confirmed that Bitcoin is a mania Ponzi.

So you don't think that an anonymous coin that cannot be seized or frozen or tracked by the government will make taxes harder to collect? Sure government will still try and in some cases succeed but tax revenues are sure to decline if something like this takes off.

You're adding something when you say that it can't be seized.

To say it can't be seized implies that it can't be collected. I'd say that essentially begs the question.

CoinCube I suggest you ignore nonsense like this. It defies comprehension of decentralized crypto-currency.

So, if your question is whether or not I think that an anonymous coin that cannot be tracked (directly) by the government will make taxes harder to collect, my answer is not much. As I said, the US dollar already has these properties.

The government is phasing out cash, as I covered in my prior post.

Now whether anonymity will work reliably and whether the coin can't be shutdown by filtering at the routers controlled by the major governments is technical discussion that will have to wait until the details of such a coin are known.

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December 01, 2013, 04:35:02 AM
 #178

CoinCube to the extent that needs to be the case, the collective/government can get funding from the physical economy that can't be anonymous.

I see some ying and yang balance ahead. It will sort itself out. There are no absolutes in the universe.

Fair enough. Surprisingly I find myself converted.
Lead on AnonyMint I will follow you into the new world order  Cheesy

Devil is in the details. You should not accept a package without opening it to inspect the contents.

I am concerned about the governments' ability to censor internet packets to shutdown certain traffic. I believe there are counter-measures that simultaneously maintain robust anonymity.

P.S. I have adopted an Asian perspective to some degree so that might explain why you find some agreement with my posts.

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December 01, 2013, 04:37:04 AM
 #179


Indeed mathematically proven to be so. Find my post where I talked about Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem and the impossibility to both band-limit and time-limit sampling without getting infinite frequencies of aliasing error and I linked to the following blog article of mine:

http://unheresy.com/The%20Universe.html#Matter_as_a_continuum






Edit: in addition to the link above, refer to the original discussion which I quoted below in case Risto deletes from his thread which he seems to do a lot:

If a guy has found such a pattern in Bitcoin price and made it visible from all the noise, and if that even somehow matches a long history up to this point, I'm going to listen to him very closely.

OMG, the dopamine spikes from the get-rich-quick-fever are running so high that the new religion is finding information in aliasing error[1].

[1] Shannon-Nyquist Sampling Theorem

Noting than Shannon defined information content for us with his work on Shannon entropy.

Sorry just had to reply to that one Wink It is too funny (for a math and physics nerd like me).

Fitting to a trendline has no relationship to these fundamentals
I disagree. Risto specifically developed the trendline & formula to support the fundamentals in mind, ie. $300k USD/BTC for a fair price in the position of Bitcoin being a major facilitator of trade worldwide. Thus, the fitting has been rigged to match these perceived fundamentals. Given other projections, the trendline could be adjusted with an altered or altogether different formula, still seeming to "match perfectly" with the secular trend with constant deviations from the trendline.

Thus, it all is to a large degree sleight of mind. The only aspect that is obvious for everyone is the exponential uphill. How steep in the big picture is anyone's guess. I consider Risto's version rather solid compromise, with a beautiful connection and parables to the laws of nature that govern this world (can't remember how or through whose arguments I came to this conclusion).

On a more esoteric angle, I personally believe the order and laws behind all natural phenomena can be successfully extrapolated to macro environments like collective valuation of financial instruments. I'm no specialist in TA but am inclined to think that's the particular point why Technical Analysis works.

Bitcoin price is a result of natural phenomena consisting of numerous layers of invisible laws of large numbers governing the average distribution of stuff. As such, the laws add up to a sort of very complex interference pattern that reveals a virtual image to an outside observer. A bit like Moire pattern:



See the whiteish - convex cylinder that comes up in the middle of the two large rings. That's a Moire pattern. If you examine it, it's not drawn anywhere and you will have to conclude it appears spontaneously, more likely unintended. Yet it's a very specific form arising out of the interaction of the properties of the two large red-blue rings.

If a guy has found such a pattern in Bitcoin price and made it visible from all the noise, and if that even somehow matches a long history up to this point, I'm going to listen to him very closely.

Remember; As above, so below.

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December 01, 2013, 04:45:41 AM
 #180


The government is phasing out cash, as I covered in my prior post.

Now whether anonymity will work reliably and whether the coin can't be shutdown by filtering at the routers controlled by the major governments is technical discussion that will have to wait until the details of such a coin are known.

It will have to be very technically robust to survive. Government will be looking for scapegoats to blame the debt collapse on.
Anonymous cryptocurrency is sure to be a target.

Devil is in the details. You should not accept a package without opening it to inspect the contents.

Fair enough consider my conversion a statement of intent rather then a binding contract.



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