Banned Account Question

[botany]

I'm unaware of what I did wrong. 

Why is this happening to him at all?

I don't understand why you have banned this user

That was a while ago, why the ban now?

Yeah this is total horseshit... He was allowed to be here 2 months after this, and suddenly today he gets banned?

Why are people acting surprised or feigning shock when it is such a clear case of plagiarism and he already has negative trust from a DT2 member for it? Rules are always rules, unless they are broken by somebody close to us.

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[DarkStar_]

Ahh come on Theymos, lots of people speaking up for him.. even the User who reported him thinks he needs a pass.. He is running a charity auction right now, surely someone with good intentions just gets a slap on the wrist?

I was not the reporter, that was creamy08 I believe.

Why are people acting surprised or feigning shock when it is such a clear case of plagiarism and he already has negative trust from a DT2 member for it? Rules are always rules, unless they are broken by somebody close to us.

I literally got added to DT2 last night or this morning (I think?) so I don't know if I really count right now.

[botany]

Why are people acting surprised or feigning shock when it is such a clear case of plagiarism and he already has negative trust from a DT2 member for it? Rules are always rules, unless they are broken by somebody close to us.

I literally got added to DT2 last night or this morning (I think?) so I don't know if I really count right now.

True, but you do count now. Vod had also given negative trust at one point of time for copy-pasting, but I guess that was removed considering Chit's other activities.

[TMAN]

I literally got added to DT2 last night or this morning (I think?) so I don't know if I really count right now.

congrats/commiserations.. I wonder how quick till you rise to the ranks of Pharmapussy and laura in the hated stakes..

I do think this is a case of a mistake by a respected member who hadn't read the rules. Whilst I see the forum stance on it, I also see that Chi is a great member of the community who really does add value to this place.

[ChiBitCTy2]

N/a

[BitcoinPenny]

https://www.quora.com/Should-I-sell-my-house-and-invest-in-bitcoin-as-I-can-only-buy-4-bitcoins-as-of-now-after-selling-my-home/answer/Apurva-Patel-28

accidental source omission.

 

Theymos has a valid point.

After reading the provided link (Thank you, theymos.), it is clear to me that this was straight plagiarism. It's still unclear to me if ChiBitCTy was trying to claim the words as his own (I strongly doubt that he was), or if he was simply taking a lazy shortcut by re-posting (without proper credit) what he felt was a great answer from someone else.

There is also the question of if he was doing so to meet a sig campaign quota (or whatever sig campaigns use to credit their payouts). To me, that should be between the sig campaign owner and ChiBitCTy, but it's not my forum; it's not my rule.

Whilst I see the forum stance on it, I also see that Chi is a great member of the community who really does add value to this place.

TMAN has a valid point too.

ChiBitCTy is a respected member of this community "who really does add value to this place."

It would be a shame to lose him over something like this.

To err is human....to forgive divine.

Please give him another chance.

I think that everyone, regardless of their stance on this particular issue, can agree with the above.


Theymos,

What if we compromise on the issue? What if ChiBitCTy were to make a public mea culpa here? If he were to post a public and sincere "sorry, won't do it again," then might you consider unbanning him? (Obviously, more worded and heart-felt than that brief example.)

I'm not asking you to agree to this solution, only to genuinely consider it. I trust and respect your final decision, theymos.

Regards,
Chris

EDIT: It looks like ChBitCTY has already apologized. Well done, ChiBitCTy.

[Panthers52]

It looks like this was reported several months ago, I am not sure why this was just acted upon recently.

I hope this can help.

-snip-

He's a legitimate user. I've contacted him.

If it means anything the person theymos thinks has zero moral virtue believes that the OP is a "legitimate user" and presumably thinks should not be banned.

Kind Regards
Panthers52

[DarkStar_]

I did not purposely plagiarize.  Those sig campaigns require you to have a certain amount of words in your posts.  If I quote that person, I get more words..why would I want to purposely leave that out and have less words for the post?  I wouldn't as they ask for A LOT of words.  

I believe you were in the Moonlite campaign during your copy/pasting, which has a requirement of:

Posts must be at least 200 characters long.

200 characters isn't that hard to reach; this post is now 200 characters excluding the quote, and it's not very long.

[hilariousetc]

I do think this is a case of a mistake by a respected member who hadn't read the rules.

But when one of these "pajeet" posters as you like to call them does the same you're not defending them saying they just probably haven't read the rules.

Bitcointalk.org is a BIG part of my life.  It's an escape from reality, it's a place where I've made good friends, and it's something that quite frankly makes me happy.  At the time of those posts, I was on my cell phone at the hospital taking care of my mother.  At the time I did have posts to make for the sig campaign.  Quite frankly the only reason I made the posts while at the hospital fearing my mother was going to die was to get my mind off of it.  I mindlessly made a few posts and I regret it more than anything.  I've been going through so much lately with my family...one thing that really helps, that I love, is bitcoin and this website.  

I messed up during a time in my life where I thought I'd no longer have either parent.  My brother is mentally ill and my mom awaits a new liver as she fights an uphill battle.  I go to bed and wake up every single day wondering if all I'll have left is a sister.  

I would have had more respect for you if you just apologised without the sob story. This is the same old crap everyone else uses when they get banned. You're literally trying to say that you only copy and pasted because your mother was ill. I'm not sure why copy and pasting would take your mind off things as opposed to actually using your mind to come up with a post yourself. You got caught cheating on a signature campaign and likely only did this to hit your quote, and if it was any other shitposter trying these excuses they would be laughed off the forum.

To err is human....to forgive divine.

Please give him another chance.

I think that everyone, regardless of their stance on this particular issue, can agree with the above.

It seems they can when their "friend" gets caught doing something but they've never made these arguments before for the hundreds of other posters who get caught doing the same. This is a bigger issue than just ChiBitCTy. Do we forgive the thousands of others who have been caught doing the same? Or maybe only when they have a few friends here, haven't read the rules or have an unbelievably pitiful sob story? If we're going to unban people under certain circumstances we may as well stop banning people for copy and pastes and just let the community leave them appropriate feedback instead.

[TMAN]

I do think this is a case of a mistake by a respected member who hadn't read the rules.

But when one of these "pajeet" posters as you like to call them does the same you're not defending them saying they just probably haven't read the rules.

If someone gives, helps and integrates into this community it is one thing (as in this case) if someone comes in shitposts, copy/pastes and leaches full time (Pajeet) it is another.

It is not that Chi is a friend I would speak up for anyone I was aware of in the same situation, now don't get me wrong I do not condone what he did (I think I called him a stupid prick when it happened) but he was tagged and learnt his lesson a few months ago, I would check his posts and see what it did to him when  DarkStar_ tagged him.

[Lauda]

So we should unfairly punish users from certain countries and give older users a free pass to copy and paste? And he also only copied and pasted for the sig money. Why else would he have done it.

As I've argued elsewhere, when deciding on a punishment you can't, and should not look at a case as it were a black and white issue. Look at every law system in any somewhat sane country. Besides, the Loan Shark ban removal has set a precedence for other unbans of more notable people.

If someone gives, helps and integrates into this community it is one thing (as in this case) if someone comes in shitposts, copy/pastes and leaches full time (Pajeet) it is another.

A real world example: Sentencing someone who is a pristine member of their community without any criminal background, vs. sentencing someone who is a horrible member + ex convict. They would not receive the same punishment (in some cases the difference between the respective sentences is somewhat extreme).

It seems they can when their "friend" gets caught doing something but they've never made these arguments before for the hundreds of other posters who get caught doing the same. This is a bigger issue than just ChiBitCTy. Do we forgive the thousands of others who have been caught doing the same? Or maybe only when they have a few friends here, haven't read the rules or have an unbelievably pitiful sob story? If we're going to unban people under certain circumstances we may as well stop banning people for copy and pastes and just let the community leave them appropriate feedback instead.

You're drawing to a false equivalency. You can't equate a random shitposter that literally does nothing other than shitpost to get money with someone who is actively involved/engaged in the community. Additionally, I'd argue that less than 1% of the people that got banned for this behavior would fall in the 2nd category (which is obviously a number I just randomly threw out based on my memory of the past cases that I've seen). I might argue this more, but this is a bigger issue than this case (as you've mentioned) and would probably go somewhat off-topic.

* Lauda has not read the "sob story" and does not want to.

I would have had more respect for you if you just apologised without the sob story.

My reaction would be similar to this, regardless of its validity.

[theymos]

I mostly agree with hilarious's posts. The plagiarism was exactly the same offense as any member of the typical spammer flood, with exactly the same mindset: "I want money -> I need to make x posts with y words to make money -> the easiest way to do that is to copy/paste something from elsewhere", with complete disregard for your own integrity, the health of the forum, the ongoing discussion, or fairness in crediting the actual author. If someone copy/pasted something that was amazingly high-quality and on-topic, I'd understand more (though you'd still get banned), but almost always people copy the first thing that they find on Google. To be so lazy that you won't even make up your own low-quality post, but instead save a few minutes by importing some garbage from the wider Internet, is a massive insult to this forum's community, and is proof that at least in that moment the only thing you cared about was money-making.

I don't believe in a "strict rule of law"; even if it's written somewhere that "copy/paste = permaban", I'm willing to relax that on occasion. If you're going to be a net positive to the forum going forward, then I probably want you here, even if you've made past mistakes. But someone who at any point copy/pastes garbage like this has proven that they have an utterly broken mindset when it comes to the forum, and I have a really hard time believing that such a person will be a net positive going forward.

[KWH]

I mostly agree with hilarious's posts. The plagiarism was exactly the same offense as any member of the typical spammer flood, with exactly the same mindset: "I want money -> I need to make x posts with y words to make money -> the easiest way to do that is to copy/paste something from elsewhere", with complete disregard for your own integrity, the health of the forum, the ongoing discussion, or fairness in crediting the actual author. If someone copy/pasted something that was amazingly high-quality and on-topic, I'd understand more (though you'd still get banned), but almost always people copy the first thing that they find on Google. To be so lazy that you won't even make up your own low-quality post, but instead save a few minutes by importing some garbage from the wider Internet, is a massive insult to this forum's community, and is proof that at least in that moment the only thing you cared about was money-making.

I don't believe in a "strict rule of law"; even if it's written somewhere that "copy/paste = permaban", I'm willing to relax that on occasion. If you're going to be a net positive to the forum going forward, then I probably want you here, even if you've made past mistakes. But someone who at any point copy/pastes garbage like this has proven that they have an utterly broken mindset when it comes to the forum, and I have a really hard time believing that such a person will be a net positive going forward.

Concise explanation and stance on plagiarism. I hope this is read and read often.

[botany]

I mostly agree with hilarious's posts. The plagiarism was exactly the same offense as any member of the typical spammer flood, with exactly the same mindset: "I want money -> I need to make x posts with y words to make money -> the easiest way to do that is to copy/paste something from elsewhere", with complete disregard for your own integrity, the health of the forum, the ongoing discussion, or fairness in crediting the actual author. If someone copy/pasted something that was amazingly high-quality and on-topic, I'd understand more (though you'd still get banned), but almost always people copy the first thing that they find on Google. To be so lazy that you won't even make up your own low-quality post, but instead save a few minutes by importing some garbage from the wider Internet, is a massive insult to this forum's community, and is proof that at least in that moment the only thing you cared about was money-making.

I don't believe in a "strict rule of law"; even if it's written somewhere that "copy/paste = permaban", I'm willing to relax that on occasion. If you're going to be a net positive to the forum going forward, then I probably want you here, even if you've made past mistakes. But someone who at any point copy/pastes garbage like this has proven that they have an utterly broken mindset when it comes to the forum, and I have a really hard time believing that such a person will be a net positive going forward.

I hope this puts an end to the discussion here. I was beginning to get worried that a small clique of older members could get the rules bent. Thankfully, this is not the case.
Now we do not have to be worried about other spammers using this as a precedent.

[TMAN]

I hope this puts an end to the discussion here. I was beginning to get worried that a small clique of older members could get the rules bent. Thankfully, this is not the case.
Now we do not have to be worried about other spammers using this as a precedent.

Whilst I can understand you thinking it's a clique I can assure you it's not, head over to the collectibles board and see for yourself, many of us will be vocal as there is an awful lot of trust in that board. Some of us trade and collect physical bitcoins, I always have items with other members I trust (shipping to my location can be a pain, especially when talking items for tens of thousands of dollars). Due to that the trust levels are immense as escrow is rarely used so being told that an upstanding member is banned is a bit of a shock.

Anyway Theymos has made his stance clear, a shame really as chi has shown nothing other than integrity apart from this incident.

[Lauda]

I hope this puts an end to the discussion here. I was beginning to get worried that a small clique of older members could get the rules bent. Thankfully, this is not the case.
Now we do not have to be worried about other spammers using this as a precedent.

Yet Lone Shark[1] has been unbanned, meaning that the rules have already been bent. Your hypocrisy is astounding.
[1] I have nothing against this user.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I literally got added to DT2 last night or this morning (I think?) so I don't know if I really count right now.

congrats/commiserations.. I wonder how quick till you rise to the ranks of Pharmapussy and laura in the hated stakes..

I'd also like to congratulate DarkStar_ in getting on DT.  Congrats!  I have not looked at the trust you've left for people, but get ready for the onslaught of

Hi, Is there any way to remove that negative trust?

The pharmacist,,. what can I do to change your mind?  I really work hard for my account .
 I'm really begging for your consideration.

Hello, you have reduced my trust.
Could you please clarify why you did this to me? Maybe you misunderstood my post?
I just shared the verified information bcz I follow the project for a long time and trust it;
I didn't steal anything and didn't cheat! I'm sorry if I caused you discomfort. 

Hi, Man
Why did you send me distrust? I have Legendary account and I would like to know its price, is there anything wrong?

....and on and on.  I'm sure you've already experienced this to some extent, but it's much worse when you're on DT. 

You deserve it.  You're a straight shooter, and you run Chipmixer very well.  Ass kissing done.

I don't have strong feelings about ChiBitCTy2 getting banned, since I haven't interacted with him and can't remember anything he's posted, but if he doesn't get a second chance it's to be expected.  My jaw kind of dropped when Lone Shark got his ban reversed, and then he was kind of a dick about the whole thing to boot, if I recall correctly.  Either way, the support he's garnered here should mean something.  Rules are rules, but the community's voice should be given the appropriate weight as far as what the consequences are to copy/pasting.

[hilariousetc]

So we should unfairly punish users from certain countries and give older users a free pass to copy and paste? And he also only copied and pasted for the sig money. Why else would he have done it.

As I've argued elsewhere, when deciding on a punishment you can't, and should not look at a case as it were a black and white issue. Look at every law system in any somewhat sane country. Besides, the Loan Shark ban removal has set a precedence for other unbans of more notable people.

But copy and pasting is black and white: Copy and paste = ban. Making exceptions to the rule just screams of favouritism or nepotism and doing so is opening up a huge can of worms that we're going to have to deal with when everybody else starts making their case to be unbanned. What grounds do we give exceptions to plagiarism from now on? If they have a few friends here? They've done a few trades? They have sick relatives? They're a Senior Member and above? They've done a giveaway? They've made a helpful post? To me this is literally just bending or re-writing the rules to serve a friend of somebody and nobody has been asking for exceptions to the rule before this.

You're drawing to a false equivalency. You can't equate a random shitposter that literally does nothing other than shitpost to get money with someone who is actively involved/engaged in the community. Additionally, I'd argue that less than 1% of the people that got banned for this behavior would fall in the 2nd category (which is obviously a number I just randomly threw out based on my memory of the past cases that I've seen). I might argue this more, but this is a bigger issue than this case (as you've mentioned) and would probably go somewhat off-topic.

But how do we now equate them? There have been numerous people who have been banned for one or just a few copy and pastes. It's not fair to all those users who made a silly mistake and never got the chance to establish themselves here. Maybe they would have been different had they received a warning first or had a second chance.

[Lesbian Cow]

I mostly agree with hilarious's posts. The plagiarism was exactly the same offense as any member of the typical spammer flood, with exactly the same mindset: "I want money -> I need to make x posts with y words to make money -> the easiest way to do that is to copy/paste something from elsewhere", with complete disregard for your own integrity, the health of the forum, the ongoing discussion, or fairness in crediting the actual author. If someone copy/pasted something that was amazingly high-quality and on-topic, I'd understand more (though you'd still get banned), but almost always people copy the first thing that they find on Google. To be so lazy that you won't even make up your own low-quality post, but instead save a few minutes by importing some garbage from the wider Internet, is a massive insult to this forum's community, and is proof that at least in that moment the only thing you cared about was money-making.

I don't believe in a "strict rule of law"; even if it's written somewhere that "copy/paste = permaban", I'm willing to relax that on occasion. If you're going to be a net positive to the forum going forward, then I probably want you here, even if you've made past mistakes. But someone who at any point copy/pastes garbage like this has proven that they have an utterly broken mindset when it comes to the forum, and I have a really hard time believing that such a person will be a net positive going forward.

Hi theymos,

I certainly cannot find any fault with your logic, pretty spot on.

All I will add is that while ChiBitCty clearly made several terrible errors in judgement in the past regarding the plagiarized posts/spam posts, during the time I have observed him in the Collectibles section he has been a positive contributor.  His charity auctions are just one of many examples of his positive behaviour. Perhaps his current, and future positive potential, outweigh his past mistakes, but it is certainly your forum to make such decisions.

On a related topic, in 2014 and 15 I spent a lot more time in other areas of the forum - speculation and bitcoin discussion specifically.  There was a lot of crap back then, but also a lot of great discussions.  I now just stay in the collectibles section as everywhere else seems over run with spam posts to get signature campaign money.

Instead of making endless rules to combat spam, have you considered attacking the source and banning paid signature campaigns?  Seems to me that would be the quickest way to eliminate spam, improve discussions throughout the forum, and alleviate work load on already taxed moderators.  Just a thought...

Cheers!

[Lauda]

But copy and pasting is black and white: Copy and paste = ban.

You could have argued that before, but after 1 exception has been made you no longer can.

Making exceptions to the rule just screams of favouritism or nepotism and doing so is opening up a huge can of worms that we're going to have to deal with when everybody else starts making their case to be unbanned. What grounds do we give exceptions to plagiarism from now on? If they have a few friends here? They've done a few trades? They have sick relatives? They're a Senior Member and above? They've done a giveaway? They've made a helpful post? To me this is literally just bending or re-writing the rules to serve a friend of somebody and nobody has been asking for exceptions to the rule before this.

I don't think you could set up a "grading check mark kind of list" for something like that. When it comes to making exceptions, it should be a case-by-case basis but that would involve a lot of work (obviously).

But how do we now equate them? There have been numerous people who have been banned for one or just a few copy and pastes. It's not fair to all those users who made a silly mistake and never got the chance to establish themselves here. Maybe they would have been different had they received a warning first or had a second chance.

Correct, it is not fair. However, some of them have argued their cases and the community consensus (i.e. only the people that might have taken a look at the user and commented) was almost always(?) in favor of the ban. This screams for the answer to the question: How did Loan Shark get unbanned and why? I would argue that this case would remain unfair without a proper answer to this; i.e. it is not possible to understand why an exception has been made before to properly understand why it shouldn't be made now (since theymos and you seem to be arguing this).
Disclaimer case: I only ever had a few very brief interactions with this user, and I'm not part of any off-site collector groups thus nobody can consider me arguing as part of/in favor of any "clique".

Instead of making endless rules to combat spam, have you considered attacking the source and banning paid signature campaigns?  

Proposed, discussed, and answered before. It is not happening, at least not yet. Let's not start this discussion (again) here.