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Author Topic: Robocoin Bitcoin ATM Ownership Shares - US Purchase and Placement  (Read 4767 times)
flowdab
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November 23, 2013, 06:44:48 AM
 #1

Description:
I am purchasing a Robocoin Bitcoin ATM for delivery this March with the goal of being the first US Bitcoin ATM operator. In order to maximize savings and defray regulatory costs, I would like to purchase 2 ATMs. As such, I am offering four 10% stakes in the ATMs. The winning bidders will be made members of a duly filed LLC with all appurtenant tax benefits and consequences.

The LLC filing fees and origination costs will be considered as part of the purchase price of these shares. Once the ATMS are in operation, any fees and operational/regulatory costs will be taken from gross profits.

There will be a 10% management fee for my services as the managing member of the LLC and for coordinating the operational aspects of the ATMs. The LLC will be regulated by FinCEN regulations and KYC rules. If you want an anonymous ownership percentage I am afraid that is not possible. The LLC documents will be drafted by an attorney and require your signature and personal contact information. I will be the managing member of the LLC, however all members will have the opportunity to provide input on the business transactions. Decisions regarding the location and placement of the ATMs shall be completely in my power, however I promise to consider any suggestions made by the other LLC members.

I have spoken with Jordan Kelly of Robocoin and he has given me until Nov. 26th to provide funding for these machines. I expect to receive the sales agreement and purchase terms in the next couple of days. I will review these terms and present them to the auction winners. Should the terms meet my expectation they will be accepted. If the terms are not accepted by me, then all funds provided by the auction winner shall be returned. The auction winners will have the option to decline participation in this venture should they reject the purchase terms. Should that occur they will be refunded their entire purchase price and the next eligible bidder will be contacted to determine if they would like to participate.

Escrow: Should the auction winners prefer, we can have the transaction manged via escrow. The auction winners will send the winning bid to an escrow (I prefer kluge) with the escrow being released once a contractual document is executed between myself and the auction winners. Said document will provide assurance and a personal guarantee from me regarding the ownership percentage of the ATM purchase and the establishment of an LLC. Further, said document will be executed PRIOR to the purchase of the ATMs. Once that document is signed there will be NO REFUNDS. You may feel free to transfer your ownership share, however that will be subject to the approval of the other shareholders (and such will not be unreasonably withheld). After the document execution I will wire funds to Robocoin to complete the transaction.

This opportunity is being undertaken in order to provide bitcoin atm services in the US. I am currently in discussions with my State authorities in order to make sure that this venture can be undertaken legally. Should the State or Federal government proceed to limit our ability to provide bitcoin ATM services, we will decide as a group, with each individual having 1 vote (notwithstanding the differences in ownership percentage or if one individual or entity purchase more than one 10% stake they will be entitled to 1 vote per 10% stake while I will maintain 1 vote), whether to establish the ATMs in a separate jurisdiction or sell the ATMs on the secondary market.

The ATMs will hopefully be located in the Chicago-land area. There is a confidential business plan in place which will be discussed with the auction winners once an agreement is signed and escrow is released.

Starting bid: 10 BTC

Buy it now: 25 BTC

End date and time:  Tuesday, Nov. 26th, 1200 Central Standard Time US

Payment methods accepted: BTC

Should you have any questions I will be more than happy to address them in thread.

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November 23, 2013, 07:15:00 AM
 #2

what state?

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November 23, 2013, 08:19:36 AM
 #3

Your pretty lucky. I never got a response through that websites contact.
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November 23, 2013, 09:37:18 AM
 #4

Description:
I am purchasing a Robocoin Bitcoin ATM for delivery this March with the goal of being the first US Bitcoin ATM operator. In order to maximize savings and defray regulatory costs, I would like to purchase 2 ATMs. As such, I am offering four 10% stakes in the ATMs. The winning bidders will be made members of a duly filed LLC with all appurtenant tax benefits and consequences.

The LLC filing fees and origination costs will be considered as part of the purchase price of these shares. Once the ATMS are in operation, any fees and operational/regulatory costs will be taken from gross profits.

There will be a 10% management fee for my services as the managing member of the LLC and for coordinating the operational aspects of the ATMs. The LLC will be regulated by FinCEN regulations and KYC rules. If you want an anonymous ownership percentage I am afraid that is not possible. The LLC documents will be drafted by an attorney and require your signature and personal contact information. I will be the managing member of the LLC, however all members will have the opportunity to provide input on the business transactions. Decisions regarding the location and placement of the ATMs shall be completely in my power, however I promise to consider any suggestions made by the other LLC members.

I have spoken with Jordan Kelly of Robocoin and he has given me until Nov. 26th to provide funding for these machines. I expect to receive the sales agreement and purchase terms in the next couple of days. I will review these terms and present them to the auction winners. Should the terms meet my expectation they will be accepted. If the terms are not accepted by me, then all funds provided by the auction winner shall be returned. The auction winners will have the option to decline participation in this venture should they reject the purchase terms. Should that occur they will be refunded their entire purchase price and the next eligible bidder will be contacted to determine if they would like to participate.

Escrow: Should the auction winners prefer, we can have the transaction manged via escrow. The auction winners will send the winning bid to an escrow (I prefer kluge) with the escrow being released once a contractual document is executed between myself and the auction winners. Said document will provide assurance and a personal guarantee from me regarding the ownership percentage of the ATM purchase and the establishment of an LLC. Further, said document will be executed PRIOR to the purchase of the ATMs. Once that document is signed there will be NO REFUNDS. You may feel free to transfer your ownership share, however that will be subject to the approval of the other shareholders (and such will not be unreasonably withheld). After the document execution I will wire funds to Robocoin to complete the transaction.

This opportunity is being undertaken in order to provide bitcoin atm services in the US. I am currently in discussions with my State authorities in order to make sure that this venture can be undertaken legally. Should the State or Federal government proceed to limit our ability to provide bitcoin ATM services, we will decide as a group, with each individual having 1 vote (notwithstanding the differences in ownership percentage or if one individual or entity purchase more than one 10% stake they will be entitled to 1 vote per 10% stake while I will maintain 1 vote), whether to establish the ATMs in a separate jurisdiction or sell the ATMs on the secondary market.

The ATMs will hopefully be located in the Chicago-land area. There is a confidential business plan in place which will be discussed with the auction winners once an agreement is signed and escrow is released.

Starting bid: 10 BTC

Buy it now: 25 BTC

End date and time:  Tuesday, Nov. 26th, 1200 Central Standard Time US

Payment methods accepted: BTC

Should you have any questions I will be more than happy to address them in thread.


Interested especially in Illinois was recently up in Chicago. Do you plan on having this atm in a subburb or downtown?

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November 23, 2013, 12:05:34 PM
 #5

This purchase will be for 2 ATMs. So, both Smiley

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November 23, 2013, 01:15:43 PM
 #6

10btc

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November 24, 2013, 07:50:37 AM
 #7

What will be the regulatory challenges in Chicago? Have you spoken to a lawyer yet?

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November 24, 2013, 07:53:16 AM
 #8


This opportunity is being undertaken in order to provide bitcoin atm services in the US. I am currently in discussions with my State authorities in order to make sure that this venture can be undertaken legally. Should the State or Federal government proceed to limit our ability to provide bitcoin ATM services, we will decide as a group, with each individual having 1 vote (notwithstanding the differences in ownership percentage or if one individual or entity purchase more than one 10% stake they will be entitled to 1 vote per 10% stake while I will maintain 1 vote), whether to establish the ATMs in a separate jurisdiction or sell the ATMs on the secondary market.


I think you should settle this gray area before collecting any funds from investors. Make sure your ducks are in a row before asking funding.

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November 24, 2013, 08:10:11 AM
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What will be the regulatory challenges in Chicago? Have you spoken to a lawyer yet?

Unknown at this time.  I have spoken with the Illinois department of finance who has referred my licensing and regulatory questions to their legal department secondary to the novelty of bitcoin as a currency.

At the very least, in order to establish the atms the LLC will have to be a MSB under FinCEN and maintain a money transmitter license with the state of IL.

I am a lawyer and will also be engaging outside counsel in order to ensure all regulatory issues are complied with.

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November 24, 2013, 08:19:40 AM
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This opportunity is being undertaken in order to provide bitcoin atm services in the US. I am currently in discussions with my State authorities in order to make sure that this venture can be undertaken legally. Should the State or Federal government proceed to limit our ability to provide bitcoin ATM services, we will decide as a group, with each individual having 1 vote (notwithstanding the differences in ownership percentage or if one individual or entity purchase more than one 10% stake they will be entitled to 1 vote per 10% stake while I will maintain 1 vote), whether to establish the ATMs in a separate jurisdiction or sell the ATMs on the secondary market.


I think you should settle this gray area before collecting any funds from investors. Make sure your ducks are in a row before asking funding.

I understand your sentiment, however this is a race to market. The success of the venture is predicated on being the first bitcoin atm in the Chicago market.  There is some risk that the state could disallow the atms, however that risk is known to all bidders of the auction.

Any regulatory and licensing costs will be fronted by me and will be paid back by the LLC over time,  while still allowing payments to the members of the LLC.

The biggest issue I have determined to date is the question surrounding the required bond for a money transmitter. IL may require up to a $1m bond,  although that is unlikely. If they wish to play hardball they may use that requirement to attempt to keep us out of business. FYI a bond usually requires a 1-3% of thebond amount yearly premium.

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November 24, 2013, 03:48:29 PM
 #11

Aren't these around 20 - 25 k each only ? 7500+ for only 10% seems high

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November 24, 2013, 04:55:58 PM
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Aren't these around 20 - 25 k each only ? 7500+ for only 10% seems high

This is for a ownership stake in the company entitling the winner to 10% of net profits from 2 atms. There are additional costs to bring them to market outside of just the purchase price. 

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November 25, 2013, 03:38:16 AM
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Do you have locations for the two machines you're ordering?  Are the location costs fixed or a percentage of transactions?  What other operating costs do you foresee (i.e. armored car for cash deposits and withdrawals)?  Do you plan on reinvesting profits into buying more machines?  What's your estimated profit over the next year?  Do you plan to pay out profits to owners in bitcoin or dollars?
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November 25, 2013, 03:54:06 AM
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November 25, 2013, 07:23:15 AM
 #15



I implore you to check out the reddit thread regarding this - it's a very standard agreement in my opinion -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1re65f/i_received_this_from_a_business_partner_today
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November 25, 2013, 04:42:01 PM
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Do you have locations for the two machines you're ordering?  Are the location costs fixed or a percentage of transactions?  What other operating costs do you foresee (i.e. armored car for cash deposits and withdrawals)?  Do you plan on reinvesting profits into buying more machines?  What's your estimated profit over the next year?  Do you plan to pay out profits to owners in bitcoin or dollars?

Locations are not set at this date, however the general vicinity would include The Loop Chicago and either O'Hare/a suburban location.

Location costs would be taken out the gross proceeds of the ATM. I am hopeful that we will be able to place the downtown ATM in a location for little to no rent. The Vancouver location has benefited greatly from the ATM placement there so I would like to use this as a business opportunity for the location as well as us as the operator.

Operating Costs could include: ATM servicing company to deal with fiat withdrawals and deposits, maintenance of fiat supplies in the machine for BTC sales (this may involve taking out short-term loans), lease/rent for ATM location, licensing fees, bonding fees, legal fees, auditing fees (we will need to retain a CPA in order to make sure we are complying with all regulations), etc.

Reinvesting Profits: This is a good question and will be determined by the success of the ATMs. This is also why I want the company to own 2 ATMs in that it will provide a significant amount of market coverage while allowing us to determine if there is a demand for further machines. Once the initial investment is paid back, i.e. the capital cost of the machines, regulatory/licensing fees and attorney and accountant costs, then we will be better able to determine what the company will be able to do going forward. I will admit that if we are able navigate the morass of licensing in IL and the machines are profitable, we will be in a fantastic position to expand the business throughout the State or into different jurisdictions.

Estimated profit: This is unknown at this time. The ATM makes money by charging a fee % on each transaction. This % is set by the operator with a suggested % of 5%. The Vancouver atm has a 7%. That transaction fee % is split with Robocoin secondary to the use of their proprietary software in the ATM. That split is 70/30 (70% to the operator) up until the cost of the machine is recouped. Once that has been reached the split is 50/50.

The Vancouver ATM made back its capital investment in 14 days. They have processed $800,000 in transactions in 26 days. It is unknown if the Chicago market will be more or less excited about bitcoin.

Profits to Owners: owners may be able to be paid in bitcoin or fiat. That choice is up to them. Distributions will be made on a monthly basis after net profits are calculated. This may be changed to a quarterly basis depending upon the tax consequences of the operation. We will be paying all Federal and State taxes on this money and the distributions made to the Owners will be noted on the Company's balance sheet. The tax implications of taking payment in Bitcoin are somewhat muddy, so we will learn as we go. I myself will likely be taking distributions in a 50/50 split of bitcoin and fiat.

Thanks for the questions! If you need further clarification please let me know.

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November 25, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
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Thanks for posting that. Please see my comments below. I'll answer each in the order in which it is listed from top to bottom, with 1 being the top comment.

1. BoA is a very large bank that does business with many businesses. There is nothing wrong with the fact they use BoA.

2. The transaction fee is not immoral or criminal. The purchase of the ATM costs $20k. That is for the actual ATM, the scanning equipment and the other hardware involved. It also includes a the setting up of the ATM with its relevant software. This software is proprietary to Robocoin and is used to effectuate the sale and purchase of bitcoin. It is further set-up to provide industry leading KYC services that are REQUIRED to run a legal Bitcoin related company in the US. Think of the shared transaction fee as a software license. By paying that fee you get to use this software, have Robocoin manage your data in regards to the KYC requirements and have them support the software as it is being used. Further, Robocoin has it in their best interests to keep the ATM running and up to date as it is the key to their profit.

3. I'm not sure what is wrong with this. An ATM and this software is an incredibly complex piece of machinery. This is normal business practice and appears to be inline with industry standards. To be frank I was shocked that it was only $1,000 a year. Further, this gives you same day maintenance service from Robocoin. That is pretty good.

4. This is not a big issue. A company is trying to make money on a service contract. Further, by not using Robocoin for service and maintenance for a period of time and then using them, they are essentially on the hook for any errors or problems that occurred during the time they were not contracted for service and maintenance.

5.  No issue here. This is a boilerplate contract sent to multiple companies and purchasers in various jurisdictions. They are not going to be able to spell out each and every circumstance.

6.  No issue here. This is a contractual agreement that requires payment. Further, no refunds is normal when making purchases of this size. A company expends valuable time and resources in purchase agreements such as this. They need to make sure their buyers have skin in the game prior to moving forward.

7. See #5.

8. Why wouldn't we, as the owners of the kiosk, be responsible for the data contained in it? There is no issue here. Further, the comment regarding providing upfront costs and liabilities is inappropriate. Robocoin is providing a product with proprietary software. The owners of the kiosk are responsible for the operational costs of the ATM and actually running it. Robocoin does not provide a service running the ATMs. They just provide the ATMs.

9. One year manufacturers warranty is normal. Especially for a potentially high use machine. No issue here.

10.  This is something that requires further clarification and which I will be emailing Jordan Kelly about. I do not have a problem with them changing the terms of the agreement secondary to an exclusion for the fee percentage between the operators and robocoin. I do not want them coming back and saying, "we're taking 80% of the transaction fee now." That being said, Robocoin is providing a unique product and service. They have the power here and the contract will favor them. I think that if we can get the transaction fee % made concrete then this provision is acceptable.

11. There is a need for a large cash reserve with this process. There are a couple of ways this can be managed. We can perform a couple of soft-opens for the ATMs with a limited daily sells and purchases until a reserve is built up, via short-term loans, via additional capital investment.

Part of the reason I am doing this auction is to provide a jump-start for these reserves.

All exchange fees will be part of the bitcoin purchase price. I believe the bitcoin ATM in Vancouver is charging 30-40$ more than the bitstamp price for any given transaction.

My review of the contract has also revealed one issue that does require further clarification. In provision 18 it discusses Termination and Suspension. It states that:

Quote
Company reserves the right, without notice and in its sole discretion, to terminate or suspend your right or any of your End Users' rights to use or access the Services, and to block or prevent your or your End Users' future access to and use of the Services (i) if you breach this Agreement, or (ii) to protect the Company's rights or if Company believes that your continued use of the Services will cause harm to the Company or others.

(ii) and (iii) is a serious issue for me. I have requested clarification from Jordan Kelly their CEO. I do not know what "protect the Company's rights" means or what "harm to the Company or others" entails. I think it is fair that they can terminate or suspend the rights if we don't satisfy the agreement, however there is nothing regarding the reinstatement of services or a process in which a resolution can occur given a conflict. There is a resolution process for any breaches of the agreement, but not for termination as a result of "harm to the Company".

This is why I suggest using escrow for the auction winners. The escrow holder can hold the funds secondary to a signing of the purchase agreement. If these terms are not resolved satisfactorily the purchase will not be completed and the auction winners will receive all of their funds back.

Further, the LLC entity will be signing the purchase agreement, not any purchasers. There will be limited liability as a result of the incorporation of the business.

Hope this helps.


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November 25, 2013, 07:21:48 PM
 #18

Quote
10.  This is something that requires further clarification and which I will be emailing Jordan Kelly about. I do not have a problem with them changing the terms of the agreement secondary to an exclusion for the fee percentage between the operators and robocoin. I do not want them coming back and saying, "we're taking 80% of the transaction fee now." That being said, Robocoin is providing a unique product and service. They have the power here and the contract will favor them. I think that if we can get the transaction fee % made concrete then this provision is acceptable.

Just got an email from Mr. Kelly who said that we can add a provision stating that the transaction fee percentage will not be changed absent the acceptance of both parties.

Discussions ongoing.

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flowdab
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November 26, 2013, 02:55:28 AM
 #19

15 hours left in the auction. Thanks!

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November 26, 2013, 05:21:02 AM
 #20

I'm in for 10btc. Thanks!

1LnV7h5xrFQ98HNxctKaASbB4xRBccT5Gm     Thanks!
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