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Author Topic: There is no such thing is "intrinsic value", only "usefulness value"  (Read 3704 times)
kokojie (OP)
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November 23, 2013, 05:58:55 PM
 #1

Gold has value, because it is useful to Humans, in industry application and jewelry/decor.

To a monkey, gold has no value, all the gold in the world has exactly zero value. Monkeys would think a banana tree has "intrinsic value", because it's useful to them, as food source.

Bitcoin has value, because it is also useful to Humans. I would argue more useful than gold in some aspects. Bitcoin can instantly move wealth across nation borders, securely and anonymously. Gold can't do that. Therefore, Bitcoin has value.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
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blablahblah
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November 23, 2013, 07:25:51 PM
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I see your point, but it's a pretty big claim nonetheless. Some people believe in intrinsic value, so for them there is such a thing.

When I see gold, I see a metal that was costly to dig up and refine. I also have a rough idea of its monetary properties, not least of which: lots of other people think it has something called intrinsic value. Thus, on top of its niche uses in electronics and jewellery, it also becomes useful as money. I see "cost" and "intrinsic value" as interchangeable terms.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 24, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
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I think the sun (and similar things) have intrinsic value to humans. Without them, we would all die.

Some people want to die. But even if no one did, what you're talking about is universal value, not intrinsic value. There is no such thing as "intrinsic value."

Value is a verb; valuation requires a valuer. If everyone values the Sun, that just means everyone values it. It doesn't mean the Sun has intrinsic value, just universal or quasi-universal value.
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November 24, 2013, 06:26:28 PM
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You could define it that way, but I don't recommend it. It's too vague. In the first case you mean "indispensable" when you say essential, but in the definition it sounds more like "inherent" or "intrinsic." You need the Sun if you want to live. It is indispensable for life, therefore you who wants to live will value it. The value is nevertheless not inherent or essential to the Sun (as in being part of the essence of what it means to be the Sun), but rather you find it essential to you. One who lives in a nuclear-powered space pod, or who wants to commit suicide, would not find it essential.

It may not be obvious why I recommend being so technically precise on this point, but it's necessary mental/semantic hygiene because when it comes to economics discussions you have to have this as clear as possible. The term "intrinsic value" makes it very easy to be led astray. It is a pitfall based on tribal instincts, which give humans the tendency to see value as inherent. It's a mental shortcut, but it's outlived its usefulness in our evolutionarily discordant environment. Economics basically consists of the mental clarifications necessary to analyze things usefully in non-tribal environments that we are not mentally adapted for.

It is critical to maintain utmost clarity on the fact that valuation is always an action or viewpoint of a given person or entity, never something that inheres in an object, and careful use of terms (and avoidance of loose or easily misinterpreted terms) is pretty important for that.
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November 24, 2013, 09:28:33 PM
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I will not let any criminal steal my money. So bitcoin has a value for me.
And if my government responds if i can pay tax with bitcoin my employer will pay me in bitcoin. I do see pontential here.

Sic parvis magna
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November 25, 2013, 12:13:31 AM
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Intrinsic, useful, or quasi-universal, it makes no difference what we call it. Fact is that gold is rare, can't be replicated, Bitcoin can't have those assurances. A currency can't be rare, otherwise it can't be distributed and behave as a currency.

The only reason that Bitcoin can ever have quasi-universal acceptance (valuation) is if it can become a currency, and it can't because it is being valued for a delusion about it being rare with a companion delusion about it being (or becoming) a currency which is an antithesis of the first delusion.

The usefulness of Bitcoin as a cheaper and less regulated money transfer is very ephemeral. The Spiraling Transaction Fees design of Bitcoin will kill the cheapness over time, as well the government regulation is coming and the spy agencies are recording all your transfers and identities and taxman cometh later to destroy the delusion ex post facto with nice penalties and treble rates.

You were a terrorist trying to move your money outside of the country or to another person avoiding the $600 1099 reporting requirement?! How dare you. Show your paperwork. Ah we find your paperwork is lacking. Confiscated. Done.


Whether or not the pyramid or ponzi scheme terms are misused by pedantic definitions does not provide an argument against bitcoin being a * scheme. It is a "bitcoin scheme" which closely resembles a pyramid scheme but has a few twists.

28%. Wow we are making headway in the consciousness of the audience.

The key characteristics of anything that resembles a ponzi or pyramid scheme are:

1. No intrinsic value, it is all a willful delusion of the participants.

2. Viral adoption as deluded participants scurry to induce greater fools by word-of-mouth.


Physical gold investment most certainly has an intrinsic value and you will always have that rarity and tangible value (that you can hold in your hand) and thus it can't go to 0. Bitcoins are not rare, because anyone can create an altcoin, and the only thing holding people into Bitcoin is a) the poor quality of the competitors thus far, b) the delusion that Bitcoin is something that it isn't (it isn't a currency), c) the delusion that the limited network effects thus far are a barrier to a great altcoin, d) the delusion that Bitcoin doesn't have technological flaws which doom it, e.g. Transactions Withholding Attack and the Spiraling Transactions Fees.

Shares on major markets usually have intrinsic value and they almost never have the ability to sell like a virus, because most people are inherently skeptical of pink sheets shares because they have many examples of failure.

Whereas, "this is new, it has never happened before, this is the greatest new innovation" is what spreads like a virus.

I see so many of these schemes, such as "this health system will restore your vitality" pyramid schemes, and there is no intrinsic value. It is just herbs you could buy for 1/1000 the price in bulk.

If you want to defeat this logic of mine, your only chance is to argue that Bitcoin has an intrinsic value and justify your willful, collective (what I strongly believe to be) delusion.

Arguing for pedantic, narrow definitions of such schemes makes you look desperate. Actually argue the point.

You can try to argue against:

Quote
Physical gold investment most certainly has an intrinsic value and you will always have that rarity and tangible value (that you can hold in your hand) and thus it can't go to 0. Bitcoins are not rare, because anyone can create an altcoin, and the only thing holding people into Bitcoin is a) the poor quality of the competitors thus far, b) the delusion that Bitcoin is something that it isn't (it isn't a currency), c) the delusion that the limited network effects thus far are a barrier to a great altcoin, d) the delusion that Bitcoin doesn't have technological flaws which doom it, e.g. Transactions Withholding Attack and the Spiraling Transactions Fees.

Read this entire thread:

Problem With Altcoins

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