Noob question - mining and generationg partial bitcoins

[david949]

Hi guys, I have a noob question.  Hypothetical assuming a 60Gh/s miner...

According to my calculations, running a 60Gh/s miner will take about 20 to 21 days to generate one bitcoin at current difficulty.  I know that a bitcoin can be split up into smaller denominations, but if I stop mining before I generate a full bitcoin do I have anything of value?  I mean if I run a 60Gh/s miner for 10 days will I have half a bitcoin?  If so can I trade it on an exchange or do exchanges need full coins?

If mining a partial coin is possible, what is the smallest fraction of a bitcoin that can be mined?

David

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[DeathAndTaxes]

Bitcoins can only be mined in blocks of 25 BTC (was 50 now is 25).  

However most people mine in pools.  When the pool solves a block you get you share.  Most pools allow you to earn tiny fractions of a block and payout in increments as little as 0.0001 BTC.

If you are solo mining it is all or nothing.  You either solve a block that day (25 BTC) or you earn nothing, absolutely nothing.  If the calculator is showing 0.05 BTC per day then another way of looking at it is 0.05 / 25 = 0.2%.  You have a roughly 1 in 500 chance of solving a block each day.

There is no progress in mining so you don't "lose" anything by stopping.

[david949]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

Yes that is correct for both questions.

[sushi]

with 60GH/S miner, join the POOL!!!  You'll get something everyday for now.

[maximillian999]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

[Rodyland]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

Effectively, yes.  Mining is a race, winner (of the block) takes all.

[Vexatious]

What about transaction fees? Are they also awarded to the comp that solves the block? And how many btc are earned in transaction fees per block now?

[DrG]

What about transaction fees? Are they also awarded to the comp that solves the block? And how many btc are earned in transaction fees per block now?

If you are solo mining you keep the fees.

If you are mining with a pool the fees can be either kept by the pool or shares (depending on each individual pool's policy).

about 0.25BTC in fees run with each 25BTC block.  Sometimes as high as 0.7BTC with lots of fees added to ensure transactions, sometimes low like 0.05.

If you see a fee above 1BTC somebody probably made a mistake...

[b!z]

What about transaction fees? Are they also awarded to the comp that solves the block? And how many btc are earned in transaction fees per block now?

https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees

[PenAndPaper]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

You are not going to solo mine with 60gh/z.
You will join a pool and you will get paid as long as you mine.
If you mine for one day you 'll get around 0.05BTC
If you mine for 12 hours you ll get 0.025BTC
If you mine for a week you 'll get around 0.35BTC

Then you may sell those 0.35BTC to an exchange.

[david949]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

You are not going to solo mine with 60gh/z.
You will join a pool and you will get paid as long as you mine.
If you mine for one day you 'll get around 0.05BTC
If you mine for 12 hours you ll get 0.025BTC
If you mine for a week you 'll get around 0.35BTC

Then you may sell those 0.35BTC to an exchange.

Ok so lets say I add my hypothetical 60Gh/s miner to a larger pool where the total pool mining power is 1.2Th/s.  Using the same math above that means our pool has about a 4% chance of solving a block each day.  At 4% per day probability the pool could easily go 50 or more days without solving a block.  How could the pool guarantee payment?  Is my pool example flawed or do the pools have to be massively powerful, much more than say 1.2Gh/s?

David

[DeathAndTaxes]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

No.  There is no progress towards solving a block. Each hash is like a lottery ticket.  It either instantly wins or it  instantly loses.   Regardless of if someone else solves a block your "losing" hashes are still losers.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

You are not going to solo mine with 60gh/z.
You will join a pool and you will get paid as long as you mine.
If you mine for one day you 'll get around 0.05BTC
If you mine for 12 hours you ll get 0.025BTC
If you mine for a week you 'll get around 0.35BTC

Then you may sell those 0.35BTC to an exchange.

Ok so lets say I add my hypothetical 60Gh/s miner to a larger pool where the total pool mining power is 1.2Th/s.  Using the same math above that means our pool has about a 4% chance of solving a block each day.  At 4% per day probability the pool could easily go 50 or more days without solving a block.  How could the pool guarantee payment?  Is my pool example flawed or do the pools have to be massively powerful, much more than say 1.2Gh/s?

David

There are no pools that small.  They wouldn't be popular for that exact reason.  The largest pools are on the PH/s scale (i.e. thousands of TH/s).

Generally for a pool to be viable it has to have at least 1% of the network hashrate.  That means it will solve about one block per day.  Even that however is a struggle as the pool loses miners to larger pools with less variance.  Realistically the lower limit is probably at least 5%.   

[PenAndPaper]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

You are not going to solo mine with 60gh/z.
You will join a pool and you will get paid as long as you mine.
If you mine for one day you 'll get around 0.05BTC
If you mine for 12 hours you ll get 0.025BTC
If you mine for a week you 'll get around 0.35BTC

Then you may sell those 0.35BTC to an exchange.

Ok so lets say I add my hypothetical 60Gh/s miner to a larger pool where the total pool mining power is 1.2Th/s.  Using the same math above that means our pool has about a 4% chance of solving a block each day.  At 4% per day probability the pool could easily go 50 or more days without solving a block.  How could the pool guarantee payment?  Is my pool example flawed or do the pools have to be massively powerful, much more than say 1.2Gh/s?

David

Just go to each pool's website and check out how they pay. There are many different payment plans.
Some pools even pay with pps (which is unsual in bitcoin mining) and take the risk of variance.

[david949]

I see, so if I understand correctly a solo 60Gh/s miner would not generate 1BTC every 20 days, in fact it could run for hundreds of days without generating anything right?  And if I understand your terminology, "solving a block" means generating 25 BTC.

You are not going to solo mine with 60gh/z.
You will join a pool and you will get paid as long as you mine.
If you mine for one day you 'll get around 0.05BTC
If you mine for 12 hours you ll get 0.025BTC
If you mine for a week you 'll get around 0.35BTC

Then you may sell those 0.35BTC to an exchange.

Ok so lets say I add my hypothetical 60Gh/s miner to a larger pool where the total pool mining power is 1.2Th/s.  Using the same math above that means our pool has about a 4% chance of solving a block each day.  At 4% per day probability the pool could easily go 50 or more days without solving a block.  How could the pool guarantee payment?  Is my pool example flawed or do the pools have to be massively powerful, much more than say 1.2Gh/s?

David

There are no pools that small.  They wouldn't be popular for that exact reason.  The largest pools are on the PH/s scale (i.e. thousands of TH/s).

Generally for a pool to be viable it has to have at least 1% of the network hashrate.  That means it will solve about one block per day.  Even that however is a struggle as the pool loses miners to larger pools with less variance.  Realistically the lower limit is probably at least 5%.   

Is the probability improvement linear with respect to increasing the number of hash engines?  I mean if you have a pool hashing at a PH/s rate, is the hashing done in such a way that no engines in the pool are hashing the same values or are the hash values all random?  I suppose that even if the hash values are all random there may not be many duplicate hashes if the hash values are extremely large...

By the way, thanks for all the replies so far

[DeathAndTaxes]

All miners are working on unique work this applies both in a pool and across the planet.  The only exception would be an error in pool setup/design.

[CryptoLego]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

Effectively, yes.  Mining is a race, winner (of the block) takes all.

Fascinating discussion. I was not aware of this.

Now, I feel like I'm at the racetrack. 

[DeathAndTaxes]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

Effectively, yes.  Mining is a race, winner (of the block) takes all.

Fascinating discussion. I was not aware of this.

Now, I feel like I'm at the racetrack.  

It is incorrect (and a common misconception).  Nothing is wasted when someone else solves a block because there is no "progress" towards a block.  Each hash is like a lottery ticket.  It either wins or it loses.  Nothing more.  Having a thousand losing tickets means they are still losers regardless of if someone else wins or not.

If you mine a quadrillion hashes that fail to meet the difficulty target, you are no "closer" to solving a block then when you first started.  Each hash is an independent roll of the dice.  It either solves the block or it doesn't.  

[CryptoLego]

What if you're trying to solve a block and someone else solves at first, was all your time wasted?

Effectively, yes.  Mining is a race, winner (of the block) takes all.

Fascinating discussion. I was not aware of this.

Now, I feel like I'm at the racetrack.  

It is incorrect (and a common misconception).  Nothing is wasted when someone else solves a block because there is no "progress" towards a block.  Each hash is like a lottery ticket.  It either wins or it loses.  Nothing more.  Having a thousand losing tickets means they are still losers regardless of if someone else wins or not.

If you mine a quadrillion hashes that fail to meet the difficulty target, you are no "closer" to solving a block then when you first started.  Each hash is an independent roll of the dice.  It either solves the block or it doesn't.  

Hi DeathAndTaxes:

Thank you for your insight.

I find this process of seeking the "right" hash quite stimulating.

Question:  Would you agree then, that if one has the money to buy a supercomputer, then it would behoove one to put the supercomputer to work on solving for the correct hash. I reason that since this supercomputer can process hashes at such a phenomenal rate that the "odds" of finding the key hash are bound to  increase and therefore he/she would get all the credit for achieving the difficulty target. In other words, the faster one can process hashes the better the "odds" are towards solving a particular block. Hence, the whole rationale for pooling if you disregard the desire to earn crypto-coins.

Would you agree?

Thanks for your input!