Peter Schiff vs. Stefan Molyneux - Gold v. Bitcoin Debate (video)

[BitTrade]

For your viewing pleasure..  Stefan rocked him as expected, but when Schiff was proposing a gold-backed bitcoin, molyneux should have noted that this introduces the necessity of a trusted third party to hold the gold, whereas bitcoin is inherently peer-to-peer, which is arguably bitcoin's most desirable feature.  Also, it would have been nice to see him touch upon the "value" of the bitcoin network itself "backing" bitcoin.  Overall, it was a decent watch.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFcTJAQ7zc4

[Voogru]

We had a digital gold currency. It was called e-gold.

The government shut it down.

I'm surprised that Stefan didn't mention this.

Stefan should have brought up if the government shuts down a digital gold currency that has similar features of bitcoin, and it shuts down someone who makes warehouse receipts of gold coins (Liberty Dollar), exactly what makes him think that the government would not shut down yet another digital currency backed by gold?

Obviously the gold would just be seized, rendering the digital units worthless. We tried it, it failed. It can't be done because of government regulations, and even if government regulations one day allow it, they can just as easily change the regulations again.

If it's operated in another country, well, it now has to comply with FATCA if it wants US citizens. Peter Schiff can't even offer his gold backed Mastercard to US citizens because of the regulations. This argument for a gold backed bitcoin is a joke.

I am a little disappointed that this was not brought up, as it's a huge issue with a gold backed digital currency.

In theory it would be very good, in practice it doesn't work. I'm almost tempted to call the show and bring this issue up.

[LightRider]

Person A: This string of bits is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person B: This shiny rock is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person A: At least we can agree that these pieces of paper are worthless!

Person B: Yes, but we all know that we must use those worthless pieces of paper to live.

A and B: CAPITALISM!

[beetcoin]

each party has a position that most of us have heard of before, or already thought of in our minds.. so far i haven't really learned that much of anything.

[Mike Christ]

I didn't enjoy this one.  Peter hasn't done any research about bitcoin and admits he's "not a computer guy", so of course he's biased toward gold (aside from owning it.)

And of course, he wanted to be the one with the biggest opinion regardless

[BitTrade]

Person A: This string of bits is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person B: This shiny rock is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person A: At least we can agree that these pieces of paper are worthless!

Person B: Yes, but we all know that we must use those worthless pieces of paper to live.

A and B: CAPITALISM!

[beetcoin]

I didn't enjoy this one.  Peter hasn't done any research about bitcoin and admits he's "not a computer guy", so of course he's biased toward gold (aside from owning it.)

And of course, he wanted to be the one with the biggest opinion regardless

i agree.. nothing about the discussion was that interesting. there needs to be a person with a computer technical + economics background for the discussion to be interesting. i didn't really like the topics they were talking about, since i already know of most of those issues.

[LightRider]

Person A: This string of bits is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person B: This shiny rock is worth more pieces of worthless paper!

Person A: At least we can agree that these pieces of paper are worthless!

Person B: Yes, but we all know that we must use those worthless pieces of paper to live.

A and B: CAPITALISM!

I don't "hate" capitalism, I understand it and am pointing out its absurdity.

[Voogru]

I don't "hate" capitalism, I understand it and am pointing out its absurdity.


....

I'm selling a motherboard!

I see you're selling a motherboard. It's free right? Under RBE, there is no currency and the price of everything is $0 and requires a central planner.

I have contacted the central planner and we have established that I could use the motherboard, and you obviously don't need it since you're trying to sell it.

Men with guns will come to pickup the motherboard from you in the morning.

[BitTrade]

I don't "hate" capitalism, I understand it and am pointing out its absurdity.


....

I'm selling a motherboard!

I see you're selling a motherboard. It's free right? Under RBE, there is no currency and the price of everything is $0 and requires a central planner.

*Dials phone* Hello, zeitgeist central computer of the anarcho-communist utopia?  I'd like 10000 ASIC miners please.  

[LightRider]

I don't "hate" capitalism, I understand it and am pointing out its absurdity.


....

I'm selling a motherboard!

I see you're selling a motherboard. It's free right? Under RBE, there is no currency and the price of everything is $0 and requires a central planner.

I have contacted the central planner and we have established that I could use the motherboard, and you obviously don't need it since you're trying to sell it.

Men with guns will come to pickup the motherboard from you in the morning.

I wish we were living in an RBE right now, but as it is, I must advertise unwanted goods in my possession to others who might be interested via the unfettered chaos of the "free market" and since I am forced to compete with others for the basic necessities of life by an invalid economic monetary game, I am forced to engage in "voluntary trade" with others, each of us seeking to gain advantage over the other in order to obtain more than what is being offered by the counter party, a form of mental combat.

Or, you know, capitalism.

[gangplank]

Don't waste your time on this one, nothing to do with Molyneux but it's pretty much Schiff trying to talk over Molyneux the entire time because it's not fair if Bitcoin erodes his PM business he's worked so hard to build up over decades and lose it all to Bitcoin right at the very end just as the economy implodes.

[BitTrade]

Don't waste your time on this one, nothing to do with Molyneux but it's pretty much Schiff trying to talk over Molyneux the entire time because it's not fair if Bitcoin erodes his PM business he's worked so hard to build up over decades and lose it all to Bitcoin right at the very end just as the economy implodes.

Indeed, his bias and butt-hurtedness is glaringly evident. 

[beetcoin]

Don't waste your time on this one, nothing to do with Molyneux but it's pretty much Schiff trying to talk over Molyneux the entire time because it's not fair if Bitcoin erodes his PM business he's worked so hard to build up over decades and lose it all to Bitcoin right at the very end just as the economy implodes.

Indeed, his bias and butt-hurtedness is glaringly evident.  

well, he did say 'if i could buy bitcoins at $30 like when it was before, i'd do it." which is a stupid point to bring up, since it's complete hindsight. what happened was that he was bearish on BTC when it was $30 or so, and he didn't think it was worth it, but he wouldn't admit that.

[gangplank]

well, he did say 'if i could buy bitcoins at $30 like when it was before, i'd do it." which is a stupid point to bring up, since it's complete hindsight. what happened was that he was bearish on BTC when it was $30 or so, and he didn't think it was worth it, but he wouldn't admit that.

That's because it's all about whether there is an opportunity for him to skim the profits. Because he doesn't understand it, he doesn't want anyone buying it until he has a firm grasp on it and then him, Alex Jones and the rest of those affiliate marketers will start flogging it hard. Probably won't happen though as their listener base is too stupid to grasp the concept so they'll stick to gold, silver, survival seeds and fucking berkey water filters.

[BitTrade]

I am forced to engage in "voluntary trade" with others, each of us seeking to gain advantage over the other in order to obtain more than what is being offered by the counter party, a form of mental combat.

Actually by definition, "voluntary trade" always benefits both parties.  You provide a service that I value more than these bitcoins (which I received for my unique service), and you value these bitcoins more than the time and effort it takes to provide your service.  Win/Win.  Otherwise it would be coercive / involuntary trade - which is what we have today in many areas (healthcare, taxation, subsidies, etc.)

[LightRider]

I am forced to engage in "voluntary trade" with others, each of us seeking to gain advantage over the other in order to obtain more than what is being offered by the counter party, a form of mental combat.

Actually by definition, "voluntary trade" always benefits both parties.  You provide a service that I value more than these bitcoins (which I received for my unique service), and you value these bitcoins more than the time and effort it takes to provide your service.  Win/Win.  Otherwise it would be coercive / involuntary trade - which is what we have today in many areas (healthcare, taxation, subsidies, etc.)

Actually I would give away my stuff but I cannot because I must pay to live, so I am forced to accept money in trade or die in the streets.

[BitTrade]

Actually I would give away my stuff but I cannot because I must pay to live, so I am forced to accept money in trade or die in the streets.

How did you get the stuff to give away in the first place?  Why did you work to get stuff if you're just going to give it away?  Why not work to find your own food, clothes, and shelter so you don't die in the streets?  Surely there are better hunters, clothes manufacturers, and home builders who may be willing to exchange services, but if you don't want to barter services, you're free to live without that "forced voluntary trade" you talk about.   

You "resource based" advocates think that an incentive to be productive is slavery, but an incentive to be productive boils down to an incentive to live.  An incentive to get food to stay alive.  Basic human needs.  And I doubt you could in good conscience admit that your incentive to live is not your own responsibility.  

[LightRider]

Actually I would give away my stuff but I cannot because I must pay to live, so I am forced to accept money in trade or die in the streets.

How did you get the stuff in the first place?  Why did you work to get stuff if you're just going to give it away?  Why not work to find your own food, clothes, and shelter?  Surely there are better hunters, clothes manufacturers, and home builders, but you're free to do it without that "forced voluntary trade" you talk about.   

Probably the same as you did, engaging in the eco-genocidal death spiral of capitalism. Because I didn't know any better. I may have to one day. Undoubtedly, but unfortunately no one can survive all on their own.

[BitTrade]

Probably the same as you did, engaging in the eco-genocidal death spiral of capitalism. Because I didn't know any better. I may have to one day. Undoubtedly, but unfortunately no one can survive all on their own.

What if society itself is actually the ideal venus project central computer?   Want a house?  Call a home building expert.  Want food?  Go to restaurant.  Imagine that.  Maybe your central computer can make a burger like five guys, but I doubt it, since the 5 guys would be lounging on the beach all day in the venus project world instead of figuring out how to program a computer to make great burgers.  WE are the experts, so we call on EACHOTHER to do things that we can't do ourselves.  

Unfortunately, we tossed physical slavery a while ago, and slavery to a central computer isn't much better, so the only catch is that you'll have to get off your ass develop some skills of your own, or have someone else support you with their skills.   It all boils down to the fact that life requires work to stay alive, and to suggest that it's anyone's responsibility but your own is to endorse slavery, be it to other humans or a central computer.