Hold your horses.

[JoelKatz]

The bot is sifting your money out of the market at micro-increments each time the market shakes up and down!

Let me guess -- it buys bitcoins, forcing the price up, which it then sells, forcing the price back down. Then it just repeats the process. Am I right?

[Vandroiy]

The bot is sifting your money out of the market at micro-increments each time the market shakes up and down!

Let me guess -- it buys bitcoins, forcing the price up, which it then sells, forcing the price back down. Then it just repeats the process. Am I right?

It's not wise to force the price anywhere. The bots typically just wait for small-scale fluctuations, and have a higher tendency to sell at higher prices and buy at lower. Their advantage is that their time isn't too valuable, so they can trade on small margins.

So, I guess the bots feed on jumpy prices at low volumes. Larger spikes are usually food for day-traders... I think it's all fed by people who let themselves be manipulated too easily. Their money pays for the show. IMO, we will see a few speculators and a lot of destroyed wannabe speculators in the end. And those who laugh at the show.

(I'm not the type to watch at a challenge like this idly, so I will be in one of the former groups -- but I know very well I could become a defeated wannabe. I hope everyone playing is aware that he can lose.)

[JoelKatz]

It's not wise to force the price anywhere. The bots typically just wait for small-scale fluctuations, and have a higher tendency to sell at higher prices and buy at lower. Their advantage is that their time isn't too valuable, so they can trade on small margins.

That doesn't work very well. If the margin is less than the commission, you don't make money. If the margin is only slightly better than the commission, you don't have to fail on too many transactions to be losing money. (Every time you fail, you lose the commission on both transactions.)

You wind up having to take bigger and bigger risks to chase smaller and smaller profits. What if you buy and then the price starts to drop? If you sell to cut your losses, you lose on the commission on both transactions. If you wait, you lose more and more time with your funds risking a bigger and bigger loss.

[ampirebus]

I think these washouts are a good thing, at this stage. Those early adopter and early heist and "teenage millionaires" bitcoins need to be redistributed. The lower it goes the better bitcoins get spread out among investors and general public. It is a good thing in my book.

So... do not hold your horses, do panic. The sooner we get a capitulation event the sooner we move on.

What I would say is people who invest their lunch money on bitcoins should leave as soon as possible, for their own good. Those who remain should be able to afford losing their entire investment without commiting suicide.

do you realize this makes you sound like an out of touch jerk or just an outright buffoon? Many people can barely make it day to day just eating food or live off hotdogs and ramen... let alone have investment capital. The middle class is shrinking and fast. upward mobility is harder here than it is in some "third world" countries. Just because someone isnt rich doesnt mean they can't try to increase their social stratification

i couldnt even get a loan from a bank for a subway sandiwhc that costs 5$ right now let alone anything else. And i've been unemployed for 3 years and i have college training. And compared to many other americans i have a good life and im clining on barely.

"blah blah blah i dont think people with a lot of money should be doing what i do because im better than them"

[grod]

That doesn't work very well. If the margin is less than the commission, you don't make money.

Plenty evidence that mtgox or a favored client run one or more tradebots at a greatly reduced or zero commission.  If they were, we would never know.  And armed with the knowledge of how much money is entering and exiting the exchange with 90% trade volume as well as seeing "dark pools" such a bot could vastly outperform humans and other bots both.

There's a reason real life exchanges are regulated to keep such a conflict of interest from happening.   MtGox is ... a magic the gathering exchange.  They can do whatever they wish.  They are accountable to nobody.

[error]

That doesn't work very well. If the margin is less than the commission, you don't make money.

Plenty evidence that mtgox or a favored client run one or more tradebots at a greatly reduced or zero commission.  If they were, we would never know.  And armed with the knowledge of how much money is entering and exiting the exchange with 90% trade volume as well as seeing "dark pools" such a bot could vastly outperform humans and other bots both.

There's a reason real life exchanges are regulated to keep such a conflict of interest from happening.   MtGox is ... a magic the gathering exchange.  They can do whatever they wish.  They are accountable to nobody.

MtGox is fully accountable - to its customers. The way it should be. If any significant number of its customers had a problem with MtGox, then they would go elsewhere, MtGox would change the way it operates, or it would fail.

[grod]

MtGox is fully accountable - to its customers. The way it should be. If any significant number of its customers had a problem with MtGox, then they would go elsewhere, MtGox would change the way it operates, or it would fail.

No, they are not accountable.  What you describe is simply good customer service.  If MtGox ran or allowed an advantaged trade bot and made that fact public you'd see outrage and fleeing, I guarantee it.  That's the advantage of NOT being accountable.  As long as nobody can prove anything no backlash, just additional profit.

Think of it as front running evolved.

[error]

MtGox is fully accountable - to its customers. The way it should be. If any significant number of its customers had a problem with MtGox, then they would go elsewhere, MtGox would change the way it operates, or it would fail.

No, they are not accountable.  What you describe is simply good customer service.  If MtGox ran or allowed an advantaged trade bot and made that fact public you'd see outrage and fleeing, I guarantee it.  That's the advantage of NOT being accountable.  As long as nobody can prove anything no backlash, just additional profit.

Think of it as front running evolved.

And just who do you think Mt. Gox should be accountable to?

[JoelKatz]

No, they are not accountable.  What you describe is simply good customer service.  If MtGox ran or allowed an advantaged trade bot and made that fact public you'd see outrage and fleeing, I guarantee it.  That's the advantage of NOT being accountable.  As long as nobody can prove anything no backlash, just additional profit.

It doesn't matter whether anyone can prove anything or not. If I tend to lose a lot at a casino, I won't go back to that casino. I don't need to prove that the odds are worse there, I just need to feel that I'm not doing as well as I think I should and I'll try someplace else. If I do better elsewhere, I'll stay there.

[Cluster2k]

I think these washouts are a good thing, at this stage. Those early adopter and early heist and "teenage millionaires" bitcoins need to be redistributed. The lower it goes the better bitcoins get spread out among investors and general public. It is a good thing in my book.

So... do not hold your horses, do panic. The sooner we get a capitulation event the sooner we move on.

What I would say is people who invest their lunch money on bitcoins should leave as soon as possible, for their own good. Those who remain should be able to afford losing their entire investment without commiting suicide.

Investors need to man up and dump their fortunes into bitcoins.  Like, right now, when I have plenty of Asks on MtGox.  What happens to their fortunes after that doesn't concern me in the slightest 

[grod]

It doesn't matter whether anyone can prove anything or not. If I tend to lose a lot at a casino, I won't go back to that casino. I don't need to prove that the odds are worse there, I just need to feel that I'm not doing as well as I think I should and I'll try someplace else. If I do better elsewhere, I'll stay there.

How about this scenario.   There is ONE casino.  You can choose to play there or not at all.  Bitcoin revolves around what Magic Tux decides to do, not the other way around.

All the other tiny volume exchanges are simply shadows of MtGox.  What happens at the gox determines pricing on those exchanges.  And IMO the players in the bitcoin casino have had their money squeezed out of them very efficiently over the past few months.  If they all subscribed to your credo they'd all be gone by now.  Nobody admits to buying at 30, 20, 15, and even 10 -- and yet, that's where the highest volume of $ traded hands.

[Cluster2k]

Nobody admits to buying at 30, 20, 15, and even 10 -- and yet, that's where the highest volume of $ traded hands.

Nobody likes to admit they lost money, or they participated in loser trades.  When's the last time you had a friend run up to you and say 'guess what! I lost $1000 at the casino last night!' 

A lot of people got burned up the way up to $30 if they didn't quickly sell on the way down.  The 'buy and hold' crowd are deep in the red.  Few people possessed bitcoins of any value prior to the spike as they weren't popular before early 2011.

[d.james]

i think the op is trying to get out.

[pekv2]

i think the op is trying to get out.

lol nope, been mining since I have created an account here.

I'm not leaving nor trying to get out with my 5 bitcoins<LOL.

[mobodick]

The bot is sifting your money out of the market at micro-increments each time the market shakes up and down!

Let me guess -- it buys bitcoins, forcing the price up, which it then sells, forcing the price back down. Then it just repeats the process. Am I right?

If only all bots had your wisdom..