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Author Topic: Fast Transaction Solution  (Read 2121 times)
ctoon6
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August 07, 2011, 10:14:13 AM
 #1

Just a simple what i think a solution is to the problem of secure, instant and somewhat decentralized transactions. this solution does not give the bs answer, just give all your money to some central authority.

This would rely heavily a non existent open source platform that has yet to be made.

the system would not be account based, but more email based. it would not require a brand new account name/password. just you supply your real name and email address in the website and everything else works through email where you need verification.

example:
i want to buy some stuff from walmart
i go to walmart.com and put my name "ctoon6" and my email "example@example.com"
walmart.com sends an email with a unique public bitcoin address that i send any amount of coins i want.
i send BTC5 to the public address
walmart sends another email back that is signed and says how many coins i sent along with a random pin number and password.
in the same email i get a link to an image to print out a card for use at the store. it would require the pin with the card, vaid for x amount of time
i could also get the card printed out at walmart if i wanted also. the card is only required at a storefront.
if i type my email address into walmart.com it would send an email of how many coins i have and my account information and such.
if i want my coins back i type in my email address at walmart.com and the amount i want back
they send an email and i click a link in the email that takes me to a page where i specify the public address.

in short, every store or company or site has their own account systems. this is better than a single, and pointless system where you have to trust 1 company with all your money that you want to spend versus a bunch of smaller ones where you would only loose at most like USD100 worth. this does not address the vending machine problem, unless every vending machine company formed a coalition or something.

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August 07, 2011, 11:48:13 AM
 #2


Sounds a lot like gift cards.

I buy a gift card from Wal*mart for 5BTC, and it is only usable at Wal*mart.

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ctoon6
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August 07, 2011, 12:46:00 PM
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Sounds a lot like gift cards.

I buy a gift card from Wal*mart for 5BTC, and it is only usable at Wal*mart.

yep, except more online, instant(kinda), and more secure.

and you can take the money out if you want, and its really meant for personal use.

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August 07, 2011, 06:52:34 PM
 #4

Wait, what problem is this supposed to solve? You don't have the "fast transaction problem" when ordering things online.

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August 07, 2011, 06:58:54 PM
 #5

Wait, what problem is this supposed to solve? You don't have the "fast transaction problem" when ordering things online.
Yup, payments show up instantly and are probably good for most cases. No need to wait for confirmation. But how in the world can I buy a 2000 BTC car without waiting an hour! Wink

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August 07, 2011, 07:57:17 PM
 #6

Wait, what problem is this supposed to solve? You don't have the "fast transaction problem" when ordering things online.
Yup, payments show up instantly and are probably good for most cases. No need to wait for confirmation. But how in the world can I buy a 2000 BTC car without waiting an hour! Wink

That's not the point. Online, you'll have plenty of confirmations long before the product gets into the UPS truck. (If you're selling digital products like e-books, then you have to wait for a confirmation or take your chances.) For transactions conducted in person, the seller simply needs to be reasonably sure that you didn't attempt a double spend attack - which itself requires careful timing and some luck along with >50% of the network. And in any case, if you tried it on the car dealer, they could just call the cops. After all, they know who you are anyway. Smiley

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August 07, 2011, 08:06:59 PM
 #7

Wait, what problem is this supposed to solve? You don't have the "fast transaction problem" when ordering things online.
Yup, payments show up instantly and are probably good for most cases. No need to wait for confirmation. But how in the world can I buy a 2000 BTC car without waiting an hour! Wink

That's not the point. Online, you'll have plenty of confirmations long before the product gets into the UPS truck. (If you're selling digital products like e-books, then you have to wait for a confirmation or take your chances.) For transactions conducted in person, the seller simply needs to be reasonably sure that you didn't attempt a double spend attack - which itself requires careful timing and some luck along with >50% of the network. And in any case, if you tried it on the car dealer, they could just call the cops. After all, they know who you are anyway. Smiley

This is the problem. There is an example: I'm in a shopping center and buy stuffs in a little store inside. I pay it (without waiting confirmations). But then, I choose going to another store, it's simple and fast, walking three footsteps there is the next store and buy again. Double spending.

That's the risk of not using escrows or intermediaries (maybe i'm wrong)

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August 07, 2011, 08:14:49 PM
 #8

Wait, what problem is this supposed to solve? You don't have the "fast transaction problem" when ordering things online.
Yup, payments show up instantly and are probably good for most cases. No need to wait for confirmation. But how in the world can I buy a 2000 BTC car without waiting an hour! Wink

That's not the point. Online, you'll have plenty of confirmations long before the product gets into the UPS truck. (If you're selling digital products like e-books, then you have to wait for a confirmation or take your chances.) For transactions conducted in person, the seller simply needs to be reasonably sure that you didn't attempt a double spend attack - which itself requires careful timing and some luck along with >50% of the network. And in any case, if you tried it on the car dealer, they could just call the cops. After all, they know who you are anyway. Smiley

This is the problem. There is an example: I'm in a shopping center and buy stuffs in a little store inside. I pay it (without waiting confirmations). But then, I choose going to another store, it's simple and fast, walking three footsteps there is the next store and buy again. Double spending.

That's the risk of not using escrows or intermediaries (maybe i'm wrong)



You are, its nowhere near that easy. When two conflicting transactions exist clients that have already seen the first transaction will not broadcast the second. Meaning that unless you get new peers your attempt at a double spend will be killed instantly. Even if you do manage to get new peers by the time you get a new set of connections your first transaction will have spread too much. In any shopping center all the shops will have each other as peers, the first shop received your first transaction nano second after you sent them. When you attempt to double spend over there their client will have seen your first transaction and know immediately that it is a double spend attempt.

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August 07, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
 #9

Right. The next shop will know that those coins were spent before the first shopkeeper puts your stuff in a bag.

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kangasbros
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August 07, 2011, 10:03:51 PM
 #10

My solution would be following:

1. Create simple app/plugin to the main bitcoin client, which serves let's say port 29239
2. Let's say mtgox wants to promote instant transactions, and enables the plugin. Plugin now serves address https://mtgox.com:29239/ (https required)
3. I am a merchant, and want to trust transactions created by mtgox, eg. people who use mtgox client can pay at my store instantly. I add also instawallet, mybitcoin.com and several other trustworthy e-wallets to my trust list. (just an example...)
4. When I receive a payment, I instantly send a request to https://mtgox.com:29239/{{ txid }} and other services. The plugin returns a value depending whether the transaction is approved by mtgox or not. Repeat this for all the services.
5. If some service returns true, I can approve the transaction and be happy.

=> confirmation approved form 20 minutes to just mere seconds (only from trusted sources though...)

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August 07, 2011, 10:12:27 PM
 #11

I add also instawallet, mybitcoin.com and several other trustworthy e-wallets to my trust list. (just an example...)




Sorry  Grin

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ctoon6
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August 08, 2011, 04:03:46 AM
 #12

i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff, although it would be usefull in certain situations like μpayments to avoid a lot of fees, just send in BTC2 and not have to send any more for a month or so.

This idea also would work good in malls. you could go to the malls website and put money in that way, or right at the door. there would be at least 1 block done by the time you wanted to buy something. and really 1 block is good enough for smaller purchases below $500.

in addition, why are you guys so easy to just go to the simple solution of "hey, lets give all our money to this guy over here, we can trust him, right?". not only would you pay more, you are defeating the purpose of bitcoin.

overall i think my idea is both easy to understand and safe. it requires no additional passwords to remember and is as secure as your email account (although some people are stupid so i dont know, maby a text based system, use your phone number instead.).

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August 08, 2011, 05:21:45 PM
 #13

i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

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ctoon6
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August 08, 2011, 06:29:18 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

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August 08, 2011, 06:34:28 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

Why should I go to all this trouble when I could just spend bitcoins in the shop?

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ctoon6
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August 08, 2011, 06:38:03 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

Why should I go to all this trouble when I could just spend bitcoins in the shop?

you can, but it does not provide any real security for the shop, and the shop may not even accept them without waiting for a block. this is the solution to the problem where you don't want to wait 10 minutes or more for your stuff, and provide security for the shop against double spending.

I see the system to be very fair, shops should not have to just accept 0 block transactions.

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August 08, 2011, 06:39:44 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

Why should I go to all this trouble when I could just spend bitcoins in the shop?

you can, but it does not provide any real security for the shop, and the shop may not even accept them without waiting for a block. this is the solution to the problem where you don't want to wait 10 minutes or more for your stuff, and provide security for the shop against double spending.

I see the system to be very fair, shops should not have to just accept 0 block transactions.

The shop doesn't need to wait for a block if you are paying in person.

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ctoon6
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August 08, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

Why should I go to all this trouble when I could just spend bitcoins in the shop?

you can, but it does not provide any real security for the shop, and the shop may not even accept them without waiting for a block. this is the solution to the problem where you don't want to wait 10 minutes or more for your stuff, and provide security for the shop against double spending.

I see the system to be very fair, shops should not have to just accept 0 block transactions.

The shop doesn't need to wait for a block if you are paying in person.

why not, if they just accept unverified transactions they are asking to get ripped off.

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August 08, 2011, 06:47:15 PM
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i think you guys are missing the point. this is not really for online stuff

Wait, so I have to go to some shop's website and buy a voucher before I go to the shop? This sounds inconvenient and unnecessary.

yes, but it would be quick and easy. and it helps avoid the very likely situation of everyone dumping their coins on a single website bank thing. this is bad because even if the company does not steal your coins, they still could accidentally delete them or someone could hack into the systems. because the system would be opensource, people could audit the code.

Why should I go to all this trouble when I could just spend bitcoins in the shop?

you can, but it does not provide any real security for the shop, and the shop may not even accept them without waiting for a block. this is the solution to the problem where you don't want to wait 10 minutes or more for your stuff, and provide security for the shop against double spending.

I see the system to be very fair, shops should not have to just accept 0 block transactions.

The shop doesn't need to wait for a block if you are paying in person.

why not, if they just accept unverified transactions they are asking to get ripped off.

This has been discussed in detail many times. Waiting is required for online transactions where the buyer is in control of the timing of the transaction and could potentially execute a 51% attack or a race attack. The 51% attack is not as viable in a transaction which takes place in person because the attacker can't control the timing of an in person transaction easily enough, and the race attack is easy to thwart simply by watching network activity for a few seconds. NOTE that this doesn't apply to vending machines.

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August 08, 2011, 06:52:32 PM
 #20

Or maybe we phase out POS purchases completely...

http://www.bitpools.com
Pool your bitcoins with others. Vote on solutions using the Bitcoin blockchain. Keep your bitcoins in your cold storage until you find a solution you like.
Links and Reviews of useful every day places to spend bitcoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=943143.0
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