casascius and other physical bitcoins is a fraudulent idea

[justusranvier]

I think the most credible threat model is for Casascius to be blackmailed into storing private keys.

I believe that he'd want to close up shop before doing that, but I wouldn't rely on him doing that since people who are willing to blackmail might not be so easily deterred.

[Hexadecibel]

Following a good will Casascius apparently opened the pandora box. Now people are really believe that the sealing proves that the physical bitcoin is secure. But of course it is not. A producer of a physical note or a coin can copy and preserve the private key. This situation is so strange. I bet that if this hysteria wouldn't decline we will face a wave of fraud associated with a physical pseudosecured coins in a future.

It would be better if Casascius spend the same amount of effort populating the idea that only self printed paper wallets are secure. Every such cold storage obtained from a second party as a present, gift or a payment should be immediately transferred to the safer wallet because private key could be copied and preserved by a grantor. Tamper-evident seal in this case doesn't provide the needed level of security because the private key could be copied before the sealing was applied on a coin.

Shame on you Casascius  

Casascius has had options for a long time to purchase 2 factored coins, in which trust in not necessary on the customer's part. Casascius has ever been a stalwart supporter of this community and Bitcoin. He has done more to further Bitcoin and its advancement than few others. Look at nearly every news story, every Reddit post, they feature his coins. He has given the non-technical person something the wrap their head around in terms of bitcoin. As a prop, they have been invaluable to me when explaining it to others.

 Money is not his main objective, never was.

This is just my opinion, and why I personally never bothered with the 2 factor coins when purchasing from him.

[eldentyrell]

The physical Bitcoin generates a new private key using this data, and returns the associated public key along with a signed transaction to send those Bitcoins to the new address.

… and every crypto operation that uses any sort of randomness as input gives the device an opportunity to leak a few bits of your private key back out to the malicious manufacturer.

Especially if the output of said operation winds up in the public blockchain.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

This is just my opinion, and why I personally never bothered with the 2 factor coins when purchasing from him.

I heard this already... I have bought some physical coins so I do not believe that the producer could be a cheater, bad things shouldn't happen with me.

Look at nearly every news story, every Reddit post, they feature his coins. He has given the non-technical person something the wrap their head around in terms of bitcoin.

And that is a problem. He populated the idea that bitcoins could be physical! Its a vicious idea. Now people are searching for a physical coins or banknote to buy. Look at this random guy on a wikipedia talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bitcoin#Tokens. People are really seeking for a physical money they once saw on a picture. Thats what Casascius does. And thats why I am shaming him.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Surely people who bought the coins would have transferred the BTC value to a different address by now wouldn't they?

(so the idea that he could *now* go and steal huge amounts of BTC seems a bit unrealistic to me)

What? Why would anyone buy a Casascius coin with a premium just to destroy it? Of course the vast majority of the coins are still intact.

[CIYAM]

What? Why would anyone buy a Casascius coin with a premium just to destroy it? Of course the vast majority of the coins are still intact.

Really? I have seen a few of his coins and every one I've seen was already *spent* (but that's only a few of course).

Also I don't quite see how spending the BTC would *destroy* the physical coin - it is made of metal after all (and if that didn't matter then why bother with it at all?).

I don't think for a second think that Mike Caldwell would try and steal BTC and I do think his heart was in the right place (and his coins have been pictured everywhere) but I don't think that "physical" bitcoins (kept *intact*) are really that worthwhile a collectible (a reason I never purchased one nor am likely to ever want to).

[Littleshop]

Following a good will Casascius apparently opened the pandora box. Now people are really believe that the sealing proves that the physical bitcoin is secure. But of course it is not. A producer of a physical note or a coin can copy and preserve the private key. This situation is so strange. I bet that if this hysteria wouldn't decline we will face a wave of fraud associated with a physical pseudosecured coins in a future.

It would be better if Casascius spend the same amount of effort populating the idea that only self printed paper wallets are secure. Every such cold storage obtained from a second party as a present, gift or a payment should be immediately transferred to the safer wallet because private key could be copied and preserved by a grantor. Tamper-evident seal in this case doesn't provide the needed level of security because the private key could be copied before the sealing was applied on a coin.

Shame on you Casascius  

It is an open market.  You do not need to purchase Casascius or any other physical Bitcoin.  Purchasers put their trust in a supplier which could maintain that trust or violate it.  Now Casascius coins are now more valued for the collectable value than the Bitcoin preloaded on them.  If you think a supplier will steal the Bitcoin, do not purchase from them. 

I personally trust Casascius. 

[ElectricMucus]

Casascius has more Bitcoins than he can cash out anyway.

I did mention I think he is satoshi.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

What? Why would anyone buy a Casascius coin with a premium just to destroy it? Of course the vast majority of the coins are still intact.

Really? I have seen a few of his coins and every one I've seen was already *spent* (but that's only a few of course).

This is very strange. I've never seen an opened Casascius coin. I bought ~100 coins and resold most.

Also I don't quite see how spending the BTC would *destroy* the physical coin - it is made of metal after all (and if that didn't matter then why bother with it at all?).

A Casascius physical Bitcoin is worth 1 BTC + $80. If you open it the physical Bitcoin is destroyed and instead you get 1 BTC and a piece of metal worth a few cents. No reason at all to do it except in a really rainy day.

but I don't think that "physical" bitcoins (kept *intact*) are really that worthwhile a collectible (a reason I never purchased one nor am likely to ever want to).

Maybe, maybe not. I hear that some of his rarer coins now go for ridiculous prices.

[CIYAM]

I hear that some of his rarer coins now go for ridiculous prices.

I guess there are some "coin collectors" who value them being left in "mint" condition so I can *get* that although I've never been such a collector myself (I did have a stamp collection when I was a child but ended up swapping it for some toy cars).

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Following a good will Casascius apparently opened the pandora box. Now people are really believe that the sealing proves that the physical bitcoin is secure. But of course it is not. A producer of a physical note or a coin can copy and preserve the private key. This situation is so strange. I bet that if this hysteria wouldn't decline we will face a wave of fraud associated with a physical pseudosecured coins in a future.

It would be better if Casascius spend the same amount of effort populating the idea that only self printed paper wallets are secure. Every such cold storage obtained from a second party as a present, gift or a payment should be immediately transferred to the safer wallet because private key could be copied and preserved by a grantor. Tamper-evident seal in this case doesn't provide the needed level of security because the private key could be copied before the sealing was applied on a coin.

Shame on you Casascius  

Yeah, shame on you Casascius. 

And shame on me for having this realism presented to me via a Newbie. I should've done my due diligence a long time ago on this shyster operation. Goes to show, never trust a Mormon, and don't deny that either, for we all know you live in Utah with probably ten wives. Speaking of, where the hell do you find time to produce these fraudulent coins of yours, seeing now that your hands are full with them ten wives and probably at least thirty children? Shame on you for conning the Bitcoin community for the sole purpose of providing for your ever extending family.

BTW, Mike, hope sales were swell during Black Friday.

And that, my friends, is another fine post by...

~TMIBTCITW

PS: Apologies if my sentiment was already expressed in this thread, for I didn't read past the OP because I was so livid. 

[enquirer]

Worst first post ever.

Casascius has been around since just about the dawn of Bitcoin. AFAIK, there have been exactly 0 accusations of him keeping and using coin privkeys (keeping in mind Goat, one of the most temperamental Bitcoin users of significant public awareness, has had thousands of bitcoins in Cas coins). There have been no cases I'm aware of where the seal's been successfully bypassed and sold as legitimate. Unlike self-printed paper wallets, Cas coins can be traded in a relatively secure manner offline because Casascius is a trusted third-party.

Worst 798th post ever. The OP is not accusing Caucasus of stealing, he says people shouldn't trust physical coins. Even if you buy a Caucasus coin from someone, the seller could have peeked behind the seal, using the right equipment, especially if BTC price is high.

[Kluge]

The OP is not accusing Caucasus of stealing, he says people shouldn't trust physical coins. Even if you buy a Caucasus coin from someone, the seller could have peeked behind the seal, using the right equipment, especially if BTC price is high.

That's true. I took issue with the idea that Cas should be shamed for not spending his time promoting alternatives when he's providing a legitimate good where the operator's never really done anything wrong. Taking issue with trying to make Cas a specific target, I didn't address the real message. Cas' model is terrible if you don't really trust the person issuing the coins.

[SaltySpitoon]

Statistics here: http://casascius.uberbills.com/

Casascius has produced $104 Million worth of Casascius coins, and thats not even taking into consideration the 200+% premiums some coins have. If he had been saving the private keys, this would by far be one of the longest cons in history. However, hes making a pretty penny on the coins, so he has no reason to scam. As long as he keeps making the coins, he has guarenteed millions in income.

That being said, the issue is about the feasibility of physical coins as you have said. First off, it is true that the tamperproof seals can be removed. It was done once by professionals, but iirc it took a significant amount of time and expertise. He also took their feedback and improved the coin security I do believe. As far as storing Priv Keys, I could have sworn he had a key generator which autodumped the keys after printing and were completely erased. If those things are indeed correct, all we have to do is trust that Mike isn't lying about his key generator.

[bryant.coleman]

Casascius has more Bitcoins than he can cash out anyway.

Definitely not. How many BTCs he is having? I am sure that must be <100,000.

The BTC China volume is ~150,000 / day. So if he want, he can cash out in 24 hours.

[BittBurger]

Following a good will Casascius apparently opened the pandora box. Now people are really believe that the sealing proves that the physical bitcoin is secure. But of course it is not. A producer of a physical note or a coin can copy and preserve the private key. This situation is so strange. I bet that if this hysteria wouldn't decline we will face a wave of fraud associated with a physical pseudosecured coins in a future.

It would be better if Casascius spend the same amount of effort populating the idea that only self printed paper wallets are secure. Every such cold storage obtained from a second party as a present, gift or a payment should be immediately transferred to the safer wallet because private key could be copied and preserved by a grantor. Tamper-evident seal in this case doesn't provide the needed level of security because the private key could be copied before the sealing was applied on a coin.

Shame on you Casascius  

Its funny when people completely new to the scene "discover" old things.

[smoothie]

It basically boils down to a choice.

If you trust the creator of the coins, then okay.

If you don't trust the creator, then don't buy them. Simple as that.

Vote with your wallet is what I say. I'm okay if people do not buy my coins, I've said that from the first day I started selling them.

[ElectricMucus]

Casascius has more Bitcoins than he can cash out anyway.

Definitely not. How many BTCs he is having? I am sure that must be <100,000.

The BTC China volume is ~150,000 / day. So if he want, he can cash out in 24 hours.

How much of this are the same Bitcoins being traded back and forth?
And we are not talking about "just" 100k but in the order of 1-2M, if you pay attention to the rest of the post.

[coraz]

Cas' model is terrible if you don't really trust the person issuing the coins.

It's even worse. Even if you don't doubt Cas' integrity, there are other ways in which your private key may be compromised, such as a bug in his RNG or a gag order from NSA to transmit all private keys to them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

these coins are really for only if you trust the maker.  clearly i trust mike.


if you dont like the idea dont buy them, btc is find without them.


i just think they are cool and its really hard to get anything physical in btc land to collect.

I trust Mike the maker, too. BTW, Goat, is Mike on your default Trust List?  (couldn't resist)

~TMIBTCITW