casascius and other physical bitcoins is a fraudulent idea

[ElectricMucus]

Mike the maker

Haha good one!

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[casascius]

Following a good will Casascius apparently opened the pandora box. Now people are really believe that the sealing proves that the physical bitcoin is secure. But of course it is not. A producer of a physical note or a coin can copy and preserve the private key. This situation is so strange. I bet that if this hysteria wouldn't decline we will face a wave of fraud associated with a physical pseudosecured coins in a future.

It would be better if Casascius spend the same amount of effort populating the idea that only self printed paper wallets are secure. Every such cold storage obtained from a second party as a present, gift or a payment should be immediately transferred to the safer wallet because private key could be copied and preserved by a grantor. Tamper-evident seal in this case doesn't provide the needed level of security because the private key could be copied before the sealing was applied on a coin.

Shame on you Casascius  

Funny you say this and make that suggestion that I spend time promoting paper wallets, because I believe there is a decent possibility that nobody in the world has spent more time on promoting that very idea than me.  I realize you're relatively new here, but why don't you use the forum search feature to search for all posts containing "paper wallet" ("wallets?") by username casascius.

Bitaddress.org does paper wallets in a large part because of my influence and suggestions and bounties.
The idea that paper wallets should be artistic and have an abstract resemblance to bank notes is something I introduced myself.
The ability to produce encrypted paper wallets that require zero trust from the manufacturer is also something I published on my own.
I don't fault you for not knowing any of this - everybody has to start out new at some point.  So, welcome.

I really have made sure to point out that a physical bitcoin maker should not be trusted, that there should always be recourse in case of fraud.  You are making a good point about an important principle.  But just to be clear, and as others seem to have pointed out, your point is going to be more respectable if it doesn't purport to be putting people in their place with a dose of "shame" backed only by self-issued respect.  Feel free to share your message - I agree it's important - I would just recommend you remember to use your manners at the same time.

[casascius]

Cas' model is terrible if you don't really trust the person issuing the coins.

It's even worse. Even if you don't doubt Cas' integrity, there are other ways in which your private key may be compromised, such as a bug in his RNG or a gag order from NSA to transmit all private keys to them.

I think I actually have these covered.

I was RNG-paranoid from the start, so all my keys were generated via output of purportedly_secure_RNG xor output of SHA256(salt + n), where salt is a long string I mashed on the keyboard and didn't record, and n is an incrementing number.

Order form NSA can't compel me to transmit keys I didn't keep.  period... I see keeping the keys as a bigger threat to my safety than any possible good that could ever come from keeping them.  so while (consistent with theory) I can't prove I didn't keep the keys, the case that it's in my rational best interest to not have kept them (or to destroy them presuming that I had) only gets bigger as time goes on.

[I_bitcoin]

Cas' model is terrible if you don't really trust the person issuing the coins.

It's even worse. Even if you don't doubt Cas' integrity, there are other ways in which your private key may be compromised, such as a bug in his RNG or a gag order from NSA to transmit all private keys to them.

I think I actually have these covered.

I was RNG-paranoid from the start, so all my keys were generated via output of purportedly_secure_RNG xor output of SHA256(salt + n), where salt is a long string I mashed on the keyboard and didn't record, and n is an incrementing number.

Order form NSA can't compel me to transmit keys I didn't keep.  period... I see keeping the keys as a bigger threat to my safety than any possible good that could ever come from keeping them.  so while (consistent with theory) I can't prove I didn't keep the keys, the case that it's in my rational best interest to not have kept them (or to destroy them presuming that I had) only gets bigger as time goes on.

I trust you Mike, mainly on external observations.

a. I have seen your reputation grow for years in this community
b. I have personally met you and thanks for the free coins!
c. While you seemed interested in profit I believe you have no desire to have to flee the country and be pursued for fraud and etc...
d. There have been plenty of opportunities for you to abscond with all the private keys and you have not.

[StarfishPrime]

Mike has earned the well-deserved trust of the bitcoin community over the past few years - as well as being the creator of a key enabling technology that makes bitcoin safer and more useful for millions of users (the BIP38 encrypted key protocol). This protocol is used for encrypted paper wallets and will also be an important component of upcoming POS applications.

If you don't trust casascius coins there's a simple solution: You don't have to buy them!

Some have actually suggested the uBTC be called a 'Mike' (not completely sure if that's related to Mike's contributions or not though )

[ElectricMucus]

rational best interest

Much like the invisible hand of the free market one of the weakest points of Libertarianism.

[BitcoinEXpress]

Call me crazy but I am a little suspect of the agenda of a 2 day old newbie with 7 post all related to trashing physical Bitcoins and implying that Casascius, a member with a stellar reputation is less than trust worthy. I have had Cas Coins since the very early days and currently have quite a few and never have had any issue trusting him.

If you don't like them, don't buy them.


~BCX~

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Call me crazy but I am a little suspect of the agenda of a 2 day old newbie with 7 post all related to trashing physical Bitcoins and implying that Casascius, a member with a stellar reputation is less than trust worthy. I have had Cas Coins since the very early days and currently have quite a few and never have had any issue trusting him.

If you don't like them, don't buy them.

~BCX~

I didn't even take the time to read the Newbie's posts prior to me penning my satiric post.

~TMIBTCITW

[QuestionAuthority]

What I got out of this thread was that Mike can't sell his coins anymore. Since when? Were you contacted by some three letter government agency or did you find something written in legal code that made you question the legitimacy of your business? Can you still sell to the free world or because you're based in the Unraveling States of Americunt you can't do business anywhere?

[casascius]

I did get contacted by FinCEN... I probably can sell still, might have to KYC and/or report anything beyond $10k to Feds.  Possibly might be other ideas to steer way clear of any definition of money transmitting. Don't know yet, and I need to err on side of caution. Will learn and then see what to do. Am still taking steps toward production of 2014 coins and a Bitcoin-enthused legal team working on it in the mean time.

[QuestionAuthority]

I did get contacted by FinCEN... I probably can sell still, might have to KYC and/or report anything beyond $10k to Feds.  Possibly might be other ideas to steer way clear of any definition of money transmitting. Don't know yet, and I need to err on side of caution. Will learn and then see what to do. Am still taking steps toward production of 2014 coins and a Bitcoin-enthused legal team working on it in the mean time.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that happened. Everyone knows how much you did/do for Bitcoin awareness. I hope you get it straightened out soon. If you don't the collectible value of my Casascius coins will skyrocket but don't go out of business just for me. lol

Good luck with your fight.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I did get contacted by FinCEN... I probably can sell still, might have to KYC and/or report anything beyond $10k to Feds.  Possibly might be other ideas to steer way clear of any definition of money transmitting. Don't know yet, and I need to err on side of caution. Will learn and then see what to do. Am still taking steps toward production of 2014 coins and a Bitcoin-enthused legal team working on it in the mean time.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that happened. Everyone knows how much you did/do for Bitcoin awareness. I hope you get it straightened out soon. If you don't the collectible value of my Casascius coins will skyrocket but don't go out of business just for me. lol

Good luck with your fight.

How are casinos able to put these silver rounds in slot machines?



Upon winning them, you're able to redeem them at the register or sell them on eBay.

Here's what I'm thinkin'. Don't sell them, but give them away via a carefully constructed raffle, where everybody that enters wins.

Just thinkin' outside the box on this one, albeit it may not work. Sorry to read about your situation, Mike.

~TMIBTCITW

[StarfishPrime]

I did get contacted by FinCEN... I probably can sell still, might have to KYC and/or report anything beyond $10k to Feds.  Possibly might be other ideas to steer way clear of any definition of money transmitting. Don't know yet, and I need to err on side of caution. Will learn and then see what to do. Am still taking steps toward production of 2014 coins and a Bitcoin-enthused legal team working on it in the mean time.

Sometimes the process is the punishment. FinCEN, DHS, etc. know this. A simple inquiry can be as effective as a cease and desist order. A good example is how Dwolla just caved-in and is now discontinuing all bitcoin related transactions.

I think it's important that you win this, and that any compliance requirements don't shut down coin production. Keep us posted.

[WillBit]

This youtube video does a nice job of summing up Mike Caldwell's life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igi1xClurcI

[mpfrank]

No one should really trust large amounts of money in physical coins manufactured by others containing plaintext keys, but ones with BIP38-encrypted keys are fine if generated using an intermediate code, or where an already-encrypted key is supplied by the user, since in that case even the manufacturer can't decrypt them.  I have seen some physical coin manufacturers that offer such options.

(Note that Casascius is the one who developed this standard, why would he have done this if his business model was to keep the private keys?)

BTW I recently posted a fork of the BtcAddress reference implementation that adds support for BIP38-encrypting existing private keys...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355471.msg3802614

Cheers to all... And Mike, I hope you work things out so you can continue operating.

[casascius]

Sometimes the process is the punishment. FinCEN, DHS, etc. know this. A simple inquiry can be as effective as a cease and desist order.

The way I looked at it from the start, I imagined something could attract their attention but even then, it would be a win-win for Bitcoin.

I have always believed that any outreach by the government would be impossible without some sort of implicit official endorsement of Bitcoin as being "money" - something that in Sept 2011 when I started this, was little more than a far-off dream.  At that time the world saw Bitcoins the way we today see the euphemistically self-deprecating altcoin called "shitcoin".  I mean, all the news coverage was consistently "Bitcoins are dead", "Bitcoin hacked, value plummets to 0.01", "the rise and fall of Bitcoin", "ponzi scheme collapsed", etc etc.  People couldn't chuck them fast enough.

Now we're at the point where FinCEN wants to bother me...and...drum roll...Bitcoin is officially being considered money.  The original reason I ever started with my coins was to bring positive attention to Bitcoin, and even now that my ability to continue making coins is being put up for question, I can't see how what's happened overall anything less than total victory for Bitcoin.  Even if my legal counsel says "Don't make or sell another Casascius COin ever again in your life"... 2 1/2 years of Casascius Coins = mission accomplished.

[crazy_rabbit]

Sometimes the process is the punishment. FinCEN, DHS, etc. know this. A simple inquiry can be as effective as a cease and desist order.

Having met you (at the San Jose Conference) and talked with you, I'd like to extend a big thanks for all you've done. :-)

The way I looked at it from the start, I imagined something could attract their attention but even then, it would be a win-win for Bitcoin.

I have always believed that any outreach by the government would be impossible without some sort of implicit official endorsement of Bitcoin as being "money" - something that in Sept 2011 when I started this, was little more than a far-off dream.  At that time the world saw Bitcoins the way we today see the euphemistically self-deprecating altcoin called "shitcoin".  I mean, all the news coverage was consistently "Bitcoins are dead", "Bitcoin hacked, value plummets to 0.01", "the rise and fall of Bitcoin", "ponzi scheme collapsed", etc etc.  People couldn't chuck them fast enough.

Now we're at the point where FinCEN wants to bother me...and...drum roll...Bitcoin is officially being considered money.  The original reason I ever started with my coins was to bring positive attention to Bitcoin, and even now that my ability to continue making coins is being put up for question, I can't see how what's happened overall anything less than total victory for Bitcoin.  Even if my legal counsel says "Don't make or sell another Casascius COin ever again in your life"... 2 1/2 years of Casascius Coins = mission accomplished.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

The idea that paper wallets should be artistic and have an abstract resemblance to bank notes is something I introduced myself.

It's also not good at all. Paper wallets shouldn't look like something wich can be sold bought or exchange. At first... And all this sealings on a paper wallets give the user same feeling as well. You are constantly trying to make a physical bitcoin carrier that looks like an exchangeble things like coins banknote public bond or something that can be given as a present or sold. It is a destructive activity.

Why are you doing that?? And why are you priding of that?

But just to be clear, and as others seem to have pointed out, your point is going to be more respectable if it doesn't purport to be putting people in their place with a dose of "shame" backed only by self-issued respect.  Feel free to share your message - I agree it's important - I would just recommend you remember to use your manners at the same time.

Same lecture on good manners could be told to someone who are shaming a guy who is selling electronic cigarette to kids.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

you are saying what should or should not be done in a free market?  okay now i know you are just a troll.

i see why you had to make a new account for this trolling, such fail you are.

I am not saying what one should do I am just arguing that some things is not that good as it feels at first. I wasn't interested in bitcoins before the recent media attention. Now I read some info about it and realized that such a popular thing like physical coins is fraudulent, but most of the users do not bother of it. That why I have created this thread.

My strange username is the result of a huge number of registration tries which were led to errors and ask me to wait for a minute for the next try and again and again, your username was already coined ok wait a minute, sorry but you tryed to register a minute again wait one more minute and try again, sorry but you password is week try again after a minute or two.... its a terrible procedure. Now I would like to change my username to the normal one but can't.

[hennessyhemp]

Casascius coins helped bring a digital intangible into physical form...one of the best things to hit Bitcoin since the blockchain if you ask me.

Get yours before the price goes higher: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345121