Share your thoughts : sMerit Review, Rank-Up Challenge, Signatureless Campaign

[bill gator]

I woke up and I was a little bit upset to find that my most popular thread "sMerit Review" where users submit their posts for criticism, review and the potential to receive merit. I posted a thread to look for some discussion surrounding this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3534421.msg36298687#msg36298687), hilariousandco stepped up and gave me some explanations for why my thread had been moved. I do not feel personally targetted, because there are plenty of more reputable users than myself that were running similar threads that were also moved to Off-Topic. QuestionAuthority had accumulated more Sent Merits than any user through a similar thread.

I had originally held my thread in the Service section, but a valid explanation arose :

 

If it doesn't involve a bitcoin payment then it doesn't belong in the Marketplace.

I then asked if my thread would be more suited for the Meta section to which I received an interesting reply :

No. Meta is for forum issues and doesn't need clogging up even more with people begging for merit constantly.

That left me with three questions:

Is Meta exclusively for "issues" or is it for "Discussion about the Bitcoin Forum?"
Do spam, posting-behavior and the distribution of merit not count as "issues?"
Does my thread accomplish more than allowing an avenue for users to beg for merit constantly?

I noticed that BTCForJoe's thread was still alive, so I was trying to figure out the new guidelines through using that thread as reference. However, that thread was then moved from the Service board to the "Games & Rounds" board under "Gambling", which seems out of place. Can there be a thread in the marketplace that involves merit/post-quality?

I'm looking for community discussion on whether or not you guys feel the changes to these threads have been helpful or hurtful. I'm also curious to hear more of a discussion about what would be acceptable forms of these threads, and the proper location of Joe's thread as well. This is an important question, because the single most merit to be sent within a thread comes from exactly this template. It has been a very significant portion of merit distribution up to this point, and it has been extremely positively received from most of the community. Please, cast your vote and share your thoughts. Am I too worried about it? My thread was extremely useful for multiple users to track down threads they want to be a part of or even merit that they wouldn't otherwise have come across.

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[Thirio]

 I don't really get the problem here. I think your questions are valid at the same time you're overthinking this. sMerit Review and Rank-up challenge are prettly helpful for me, i even stepped into member because of it (TMAN's) that's why i admire people who try to help low ranks. But moderators are stepping up, i think threads like these are beginning to multiply and count as spam. And man we can't do anything about that.

[legendster]

Theymos suggested that there could be some kind of monetary payment involved with merits, maybe then merits can be seen as a valid form of payment within the forum. And maybe then they could belong in the service section.
I agree with Hilarious, since there is no payment involved, it does not belong in the service section.

However, on the other hand, it is a chore of a thing to do and you're doing it for free - albeit receiving some merits by other users for your effort. In that instance, it is a service to the community that you're doing for free. I'd much rather see a mod / admin do this instead of any non-staff member of the forum.

Lastly, about meta, nah, I don't think it belongs here because this is a place to discuss, request and report features or issues. Your service may improve posting behaviour but neither are you discussing an issue, nor requesting a feature or reporting a bug.

I'd say even complaining about posting behaviour would fit in meta but not merit reward challenges.

[bill gator]

In that instance, it is a service to the community that you're doing for free.

I agree that if the criteria is that the marketplace requires a Bitcoin transaction then my thread doesn't belong in Service. Arguably, I see it fitting within Meta, Beginner's & Help, maybe Games & Rounds. It seems I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Meta section though, so I'm unsure where that leaves me. I just don't think that a "Service to the community" belongs in Off-Topic. There has to be a better place, because I've had that board on my ignore-list for as long as I can remember. Nothing useful gets done on that board and I'm not interested in being the first attempt at it.

Your service may improve posting behaviour but neither are you discussing an issue, nor requesting a feature or reporting a bug.

I'd say this is where we may disagree. I see poor posting-behavior as a big issue for the forum currently; discussing with individuals how they can improve their posting behavior would seem the best method that I, as a regular user, can use to discuss and address this issue. So, I do see this as directly addressing an issue that the forum is being overwhelmed by. The implementation of the merit system is proof that this is an issue, but not everyone has the capability for nuance to understand what they are doing wrong simply by not receiving merit.

I'd say even complaining about posting behaviour would fit in meta.

Have you read my thread? 
It mostly is complaining about their posting behavior, but constructively.

[digaran]

It seems not only you feel entitled to be rewarded for your contribution, you are acting as if you are a merit source, what you and humble Joe and others are getting from your threads is more than what you are giving away. not only you are not satisfied for the merits you have received, you are worried now because you wont get money per post in off topic or games and rounds. but I think everybody would appreciate your efforts. thank you.

I believe we should create a child board in *off topic section and name it merit review, would you keep posting there? because it would be a totally new board with all the exposure you want.

*lol.

[bill gator]

It seems not only you feel entitled to be rewarded for your contribution

You're honestly one of the most foolish members on this entire forum. Where did I imply that I should be rewarded for my contribution? I want my thread to not be overrun by plagiarism and stupidity. I have the Off-Topic board on my Ignore list, and have for years.

you are acting as if you are a merit source

How do Merit sources act? You're opinion is beyond worthless if you think being a Merit Source entitles you to a special platform or inflates the value of your opinion. This is what you do, throw around insults and accusations that are more realistically simple projections from yourself that aren't worth entertaining.

what you and humble Joe and others are getting from your threads is more than what you are giving away.

Wrong. All I receive in return is people like yourself throwing idiotic and baseless accusations, after putting in hours of review and work.

not only you are not satisfied for the merits you have received,

I honestly do not care to have ever received a single merit. They mean absolutely nothing to me. I specifically put it in BOLD not to merit me for that thread, because I honestly don't want anything in return. It just gives me something to do in my free-time that seems mildly helpful and constructive.

you are worried now because you wont get money per post in off topic or games and rounds.

Wrong again, big dog. I know you're offended that I told you that you're no longer funny. It must hurt that the one person that was amused by your antics is no longer entertained by the town fool. I know that it hurts that you've been kicked out of your campaign for being an extortionist scumbag. I know you're a beggar and the money is important to you, but we're not all that low. Some of us have multiple streams of income, we didn't quit our job because a campaign manager decided to take pity on our sense of humor. I was around the forum long before I got paid by any campaign and I will be around long after they have dissipated.

I believe we should create a child board ... name it merit review, would you keep posting there?

Yes.
I'd apply for Mod of the board, too.

[bitperson]

I’m torn here. I can appreciate merit giveaway threads, particularly as I received some of my first merits by participating in one. But on the other hand, such threads have multiplied, and as they tend to be very popular, they are adding to the clutter here. And maybe they also fuel the notion that merit is something that must be asked for.

I assume that the original idea behind merit points was that people would just roam the forum as before and give merit when they happen to stumble upon a merit-worthy post. This seems like the most elegant and low-noise way of distributing one’s smerit.

Edit: And I don’t consider it demeaning that your thread was moved to the off topic board. That doesn’t mean that the thread would be of low quality, just that it doesn’t fit the topic of any of the specific boards. On various forums, some of the most interesting discussions take place in the local misc board

[pugman]

Bill,take a chill dude. Digaran is obviously getting into your mind. His posts are totally non-comprehendable in most cases,and he seems to enjoy doing this.

Is Meta exclusively for "issues" or is it for "Discussion about the Bitcoin Forum?"

Discussion about the bitcoin forum,about ranking up(merits), recovering accounts,forum-related discussions.

Do spam, posting-behavior and the distribution of merit not count as "issues?"

Not exactly. There is no discussion here,about the forum intact,rather it is about individuals who are only members of the forum.

Does my thread accomplish more than allowing an avenue for users to beg for merit constantly?

Yes and no. Most of them who are asking for merits don't know how good their post quality is,they doubt themselves and they are in hunger of merits. Your thread is helping out users and this is both again good and bad.

[bill gator]

No worries Pugman, I've got a smile on my face and I'm always taking what he says with a grain of salt. It seems the more the discussion carries on that there is extremely mixed feelings about the subject and that would make these threads controversial at best. I'm going to wait for more feedback before I make any final decisions, but it seems like my Merit review days are over.

I agree with most of you that the threads have multiplied and it has become a part of the problem, rather than the solution as a collective. This is what I was interested in, so thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone. I don't mind going back to having no thread to maintain, maybe this will free me up to jump back into your Q&A thread.

You're right about it being about individuals, rather than the forum, so that's fair. I still can't help but feel like Off-Topic is the incorrect placement for these threads. They should either be disallowed or have a proper home, but that's simply one user's opinion.

[pugman]

I'm going to wait for more feedback before I make any final decisions, but it seems like my Merit review days are over.

NO it has not,don't you worry. Its merit you're giving away. Unfortunately this crap has a lot of worth.

I don't mind going back to having no thread to maintain, maybe this will free me up to jump back into your Q&A thread.

Am waiting for ya..

[digaran]

I honestly do not care to have ever received a single merit. They mean absolutely nothing to me. I specifically put it in BOLD not to merit me for that thread, because I honestly don't want anything in return. It just gives me something to do in my free-time that seems mildly helpful and constructive.

Nobody asked you to do it, now that you are doing it everybody appreciates your work, you were fine when you were getting merits and money per post, but now that you are not going to get them, you are frustrated. typical reaction of people like you. having members to wear your signature is not enough, now you want special treatment. if you really don't want anything in return then go find constructive posts and put them in a thread then ask people with sMerits to bookmark your thread and check it every few days.

I know that it hurts that you've been kicked out of your campaign for being an extortionist scumbag.

Do you have any proof for your accusation? if I'm suggesting to DT1-2 members to request a fine to remove red tags from garbage posters, the same people who'd take part in bounties with dozens of accounts to make it expensive for them, you call that extortion? I'm stupid and don't know how to perfectly explain it, why are you pretending to be blind to the truth? how is it that you understand when I'm insulting you but when it comes to something with a potential to accuse me of, you'd interpret my post in a way to inflict damage on my reputation and character?

You're opinion is beyond worthless if you think being a Merit Source entitles you to a special platform or inflates the value of your opinion. This is what you do, throw around insults and accusations that are more realistically simple projections from yourself that aren't worth entertaining.

I'm not a source anymore, did that change anything? did I receive any special treatment before and after being a source? when I was a source, people didn't tag me for the same imaginary crime, but after resigning, they did. I haven't changed though, I don't do whatever you guys are doing. everybody is talking shit to me and you all hate me for telling the truth.

we didn't quit our job because a campaign manager decided to take pity on our sense of humor. I was around the forum long before I got paid by any campaign and I will be around long after they have dissipated.

That's not a job, however I would gladly do whatever in my power to help, but nobody gives a fuck about my opinions and ideas and suggestions in public but they all are making something useful from them according to their behaviour and actions, that's all I want. take anything useful from me and ignore what is not useful for you. done with humor, now there is only the bitter truth. you got your answer from the authorities (global moderator) what else do you want? you want something to be changed which is in your best interest. having your thread in a section that pays per post. this beggar you call me is trying to help you with that. but you are blind to see it.

[shahzadafzal]

All you guys "merit giveaway seniors" have been suggesting us to follow the “rules and policies” of the forum. Right? Now if today these policies are changed and somehow going against your “threads” why are we objecting? Why all this cry and accusations on each other?

Can somebody answer what will be the difference between Merit System haters and Forum Policies haters?

Lets accept it, I guess it should not be a problem if thread is moved to Games and Rounds board. In fact that will be the best place for such threads. I was part of those and I don't mind if these threads are moved there I will still be participating like before.

No doubt you guys were doing some real hard work there but following your footprints many more users started their own giveaway threads. Which almost killed the fun and your own purpose of original giveaways.

Since you wanted us to share our thoughts on this... I agree with the justifications provided by hilarious (G. Mod.) and it is a right step. (I will prefer Games & Rounds board over off-topic discussion board for such giveaway threads)

[Zpectrum]

Is Meta exclusively for "issues" or is it for "Discussion about the Bitcoin Forum?"
Do spam, posting-behavior and the distribution of merit not count as "issues?"
Does my thread accomplish more than allowing an avenue for users to beg for merit constantly?

It shouldn't be in Meta, as it's description indicates, Discussion about the Bitcoin Forum, there isn't discussion in your thread, people only publish their 5 posts and leave it

I think it should be in Beginners & Help, but you can also belong to Services for this:

• Even if it don't have a payment in Bitcoin, it's still a service, or rather a favor for people to know if their posts are helpful, informative, interesting or high-quality content that is undervalued merit-wise (as it says in your thread)
• If we apply what hilariousandco says in marketplace, they'd remove the threads of Free Twitter Audit, Free Bitcoin Transaction Accelerator and other similar threads, since it doesn't involve a bitcoin payment

I noticed that BTCForJoe's thread was still alive, so I was trying to figure out the new guidelines through using that thread as reference. However, that thread was then moved from the Service board to the "Games & Rounds" board under "Gambling", which seems out of place. Can there be a thread in the marketplace that involves merit/post-quality?

It shouldn't be moved to "Games & Rounds", because it has a payment in BTC with merits, they can't move it either because it offering merits as ''payment'', since there've Signatures Campaigns that offer payments in BTC + Token, so, where go these threads?, Marketplace (Merged)?

I'm looking for community discussion on whether or not you guys feel the changes to these threads have been helpful or hurtful. I'm also curious to hear more of a discussion about what would be acceptable forms of these threads, and the proper location of Joe's thread as well. This is an important question, because the single most merit to be sent within a thread comes from exactly this template. It has been a very significant portion of merit distribution up to this point, and it has been extremely positively received from most of the community. Please, cast your vote and share your thoughts. Am I too worried about it? My thread was extremely useful for multiple users to track down threads they want to be a part of or even merit that they wouldn't otherwise have come across.

I think i've answered well your questions (i want to apologize for my bad english and hope you understand what i said). For me these threads have been very helpful for the community, i've seen many Jr. Members who already have merits, isn't these what the moderators wanted?, that everyone will improve the quality of their posts?

[Steamtyme]

Honestly I used most of the threads out there, and started my own after thinking a little more about feedback I received from Bill.

I specifically wanted to Merit users who were providing assistance to others, through hardware or technical advice. One of the best things that I think came out of this, was the amount of copy/pasters that have been removed from the forum. Essentially these people thought nothing of showcasing there theft of others ideas and have now been removed. I noticed this also occurred with Bill's thread to answer the question below.

Does my thread accomplish more than allowing an avenue for users to beg for merit constantly?

On top of that I think you provided fair and accurate feedback to users which they could either use to better themselves, or accept their rank and fate.

Can there be a thread in the marketplace that involves merit/post-quality?

While I don't think they the threads should have been moved to off-topic, I can see why Meta wouldn't be the place either. I would maybe call this thread Volunteer, if people have objections to a board being created specifically for the purpose of Merit.

[Kim Ji Won]

I've looked at the boards more closely and I can't also figure out where it would be more appropriate if it is not allowed in the marketplace. Surely, the Off-Topic board is a no go because the posts in the merit review are all about bitcoin and technical stuff related to it.

I believe we should create a child board in *off topic section and name it merit review, would you keep posting there? because it would be a totally new board with all the exposure you want.

This would be likely the best solution IMO, so users and others alike that don't have any idea that this kind of service exists will know where to go if their posts are meritorious or not.

[mu_enrico]

Sorry to interrupt whales here
I think this kind of thread should be bring up even more as it's encourage good quality posts. We just need some kind of place (maybe child-board), so instead of newbies here lost in bounties campaign. It will be better if they (include me) participate in rank-up/signature-less campaign. Personally i wanna join these signature-less campaign, but too bad i have to finish previous campaign first.

[legendster]

Sorry to interrupt whales here
I think this kind of thread should be bring up even more as it's encourage good quality posts. We just need some kind of place (maybe child-board), so instead of newbies here lost in bounties campaign. It will be better if they (include me) participate in rank-up/signature-less campaign. Personally i wanna join these signature-less campaign, but too bad i have to finish previous campaign first.

If it were upto me, I wouldn't accept you in any campaign.

[bill gator]

It seems like there are more votes for these type of threads being a benefit, rather than a detriment, but this is not enough to convince me that the community has a positive outlook on these kind of threads. It seems like most of the users that are sharing positive feedback about these type of threads are exactly the type of users that are not going to earn any merit and maybe should have their opinions disregarded. I'm not sure if we should care more about the opinion of those we can help improve or worry about the opinion of those that are able to help more, at least in this scenario.

I'm not interested in muddying the waters when it comes to proper improvement, suggestions, posting behavior and merit distribution. If I cannot come up with another challenge that has a high approval rating, then I will simply use my sMerit "as originally intended". I find it very difficult to manually find posts that I would merit "as originally intended", but we'll see how things go.

[InvoKing]

Hilarious isn't wrong in his decision, your topic belong in beginners and help board.
Merit shouldn't be seen as a giveaway imo even if it looks like it, so no, Games and rounds isn't the perfect place for your topic.
Off-topic, definitely no.
Beginners and help, obviously its name is self explanatory.

[bill gator]

The only word I have heard from staff is that it doesn't belong in Meta or Marketplace, but maybe Beginner's and Help would actually be a more fitting home. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate for me to move the thread there, but at this point I'm genuinely wondering if I should even want to keep the thread going.