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Author Topic: Bitcoin will probably be dead within 6 years.  (Read 10174 times)
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 05:14:09 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2013, 05:32:09 AM by Skybuck
 #1

Currently the database seems to 10 fold each 1.5 years or so.

11 GB today.
100 GB 1.5 years from now
1 TB 3 years from now
10 TB 4.5 years from now.
100 TB 6 years from now.
1 PB 7.5 years from now.
10 PB 9 years from now.
100 PB 10.5 years from now.

Nobody can predict the future, though there are some trends.

Harddisk size will probably not keep up with the database size.
Raid systems will also fall short a few years later.

This also does not include additional popularity/transaction volume for bitcoin, if transaction volume goes up further and thus database size goes up faster it might even end much sooner, maybe even within 5 or 4 or 3 years.

One possible solution that could safe bitcoin is a distributed database size, where computers only store a part of the blockchain and will have to rely on each other to provide some sort of trust/security.

However this may also lead to additional network bandwidth requirements for checking/traversing inputs to see if they are spendable.

Downloading the blockchain itself is already somewhat of a problem for newcomers and people that were dorment for a while, it takes quite a long time, this could hamper it's popularity/up take. A distributed database my solve this problem somewhat as well.

I think development of bitcoin should focus on and give priority too distributing the database in some form or another if bitcoin is too survive, otherwise it's going to be a lot of fun watching it literally crash and burn ! Wink =D Like that episode of southpark: "poooof and it's gone ! =D"

Perhaps alt-coins will take over for a while, until they too run into similiar problems, and then the other alt-alt-coins will take over and so forth Smiley
Though perhaps users of bitcoin then in a jam... can't really go along with it unless new harddisks bought.

Prices of harddisks may start to rise a bit in the coming years.
Raid systems might become popular among bitcoin users.
And perhaps other storage solutions, perhaps network attached storage devices with additional capacity.

Also I wonder a little bit what happens if somebody wants to send some bitcoins to some address, will the checking/traversing time for input checking increase as well ? For example the inputs to be used where from long ago ? Does bitcoin perhaps find the nearest input ? How that work ? Maybe some smart indexing or keeping track of inputs ? Perhaps that not a problem...

Another little concern now that I am venting some concerns is with the difficulty only being raised each 2016 blocks. Apperently this is somewhat strange... somewhat like people getting free rides. They purchase enough computation power to ride out that 2016 block range with ease... and take all the pie ? hmmm bit strange, I guess it remains fair to all, except that the 10 minutes is further reduced to something much faster ? So estimates when last bitcoin may be mined could be off, to way off.

Seeing that difficulty raise to huge proportions is kinda funny, it shows the inability of humans to work together efficiently and take only what they need/deserve. If all would mine with 1 cpu the difficulty would have remained much lower and all would have gotten their fair share Wink
The difficulty is a reflection of greed among the miners. They want all bitcoins to be theirs however it will never really be theirs, the difficulty will always adjust to 10 minutes or so, however if they have most processing power then they might still get all of it if they a bit lucky Wink
It could also reflect that there is some profit being made, which would allow reinvestments into hardware, or it could be investment gambles which may fail.

Oh yeah and finally there is one other little thing I wonder about, bitcoin assumes sha256 will always have hashes with zeros in front. I wonder if perhaps this is not true and some day the system will get stuck at a certain difficulty because sha256 can no longer produce hashes with enough zeros in front of it.
Personally I think this may be somewhat unlikely but I dont know the algorithm that well, has anybody analyzed if such a situation is possible ?

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December 01, 2013, 05:21:21 AM
 #2

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.
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December 01, 2013, 05:26:20 AM
 #3

it's nice point one must find a solution to this problem.
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 05:29:33 AM
 #4

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.

Bitcoin is supposed to be a p2p system, using the web or any other central point for download or transaction-only-interaction pretty much defeats the original idea, not that that will stop anybody from using it apperently.

However do you trust the web ? Seems dangerous and a security risk Wink
botolo86
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December 01, 2013, 05:30:11 AM
 #5

it's nice point one must find a solution to this problem.

I think it was already mentioned that the developers are thinking about dropping part of the block chain that becomes useless after a while, keeping the limit of the database to a specific amount.
markjamrobin
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December 01, 2013, 05:32:30 AM
 #6

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.

Bitcoin is supposed to be a p2p system, using the web or any other central point for download or transaction-only-interaction pretty much defeats the original idea, not that that will stop anybody from using it apperently.

However do you trust the web ? Seems dangerous and a security risk Wink

SPV, used in Electrum/MultiBit, can verify transactions, without the whole block chain, or central reliance.

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December 01, 2013, 05:42:39 AM
 #7

All good points I don't know the future is impossible to predict Im sure when btc was at 130 then went to 70 no one was thinking it would go to 1000 we were all worrying that bitcoin might be done
dancupid
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December 01, 2013, 05:46:22 AM
 #8

Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.
Simo91
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December 01, 2013, 05:47:51 AM
 #9

We will use more online e-wallet for small amount of money and more paper wallet for the remaining bitcoin(in my opinion in the future they can someway be used as cash dollars), that's it  Grin
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 05:47:56 AM
 #10

Why do newcomers need to download the blockchain? Its a public ledger available online, its not necessary for 99.9% of the bitcoin community to ever download locally.

Bitcoin is supposed to be a p2p system, using the web or any other central point for download or transaction-only-interaction pretty much defeats the original idea, not that that will stop anybody from using it apperently.

However do you trust the web ? Seems dangerous and a security risk Wink

SPV, used in Electrum/MultiBit, can verify transactions, without the whole block chain, or central reliance.

I don't think this is correct, somebody will still need to store the entire blockchain. The website for electrum mentions a "server". From the looks of it this client is communicating with their server to get the blocks. And you trust that ? Wink Smiley
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 05:54:01 AM
 #11

Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.

Good point, however, people may start to use bitcoin more and more and more, still leading to some additional doubling of volumes Smiley which could still be somewhat problematic. Perhaps even 10 folds.

Perhaps games will start to use bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend it because it would make bitcoin explode almost literally, but we are all powerless to stop it.
If such a scenerio happens we could be seeing a 100x fold, 1000x fold or even 1000000 fold pretty much overnight. That'll be the end of it quite quickly.
Huge ammounts of transactions happen in some games. It would probably dwarf bitcoin easily.

In the real world, maybe transactions don't happen that much, at least the usual stuff, like groceries, buying a pizza, filling the car tank gas, then again there are also the financial world and such... which could have high volumes... imagine all of that switching to bitcoin ? SmileySmileySmiley
markjamrobin
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December 01, 2013, 05:59:11 AM
 #12

It "utilizes" a server, in a sense, to provide small parts of the blockchain. However, it doesn't have to trust the server, due to SPV verification.

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December 01, 2013, 06:03:04 AM
 #13


I don't think this is correct, somebody will still need to store the entire blockchain. The website for electrum mentions a "server". From the looks of it this client is communicating with their server to get the blocks. And you trust that ? Wink Smiley

I'm one of the most vocal of the 'keep it distributed' crowd, but yes, I trust that.  There are ways to keep such a construct safe, and as long as there are a handful of independent parties operating a Bitcoin server, it is unlikely that there would be cheating.

Where I have a problem with such a construct is that when only relatively large entities with significant capital invested and dependent on high end bandwidth are critical to the system's operation, it opens the system up to method for control and subversion either externally (e.g., regulatory) or internally (e.g., 'redlisting'.)  We've already seen it happen in the privacy sphere in PRISM to use a well known example.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 06:12:02 AM
 #14

It "utilizes" a server, in a sense, to provide small parts of the blockchain. However, it doesn't have to trust the server, due to SPV verification.

Ok this is very funny, this could explain some double spents/attacks. Satoshi admitted this mode isn't too safe:

""the verification is reliable as long as honest nodes control the network".

"
This is a concern in a situation where an SPV client is subjected to a double-spend attack by somebody who controls its network connection. For example, suppose you are at a wi-fi cafe and are paying for something using your smartphone -- the cafe owner controls your network connection.
"

^ Perhaps cafe owner can quickly double spent any change ?! Wink

dancupid
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December 01, 2013, 06:14:02 AM
 #15

Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.

Good point, however, people may start to use bitcoin more and more and more, still leading to some additional doubling of volumes Smiley which could still be somewhat problematic. Perhaps even 10 folds.

Perhaps games will start to use bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend it because it would make bitcoin explode almost literally, but we are all powerless to stop it.
If such a scenerio happens we could be seeing a 100x fold, 1000x fold or even 1000000 fold pretty much overnight. That'll be the end of it quite quickly.
Huge ammounts of transactions happen in some games. It would probably dwarf bitcoin easily.

In the real world, maybe transactions don't happen that much, at least the usual stuff, like groceries, buying a pizza, filling the car tank gas, then again there are also the financial world and such... which could have high volumes... imagine all of that switching to bitcoin ? SmileySmileySmiley

Yes there are all sorts of extra factors - but there is a tipping point somewhere were either Moore's law takes over and the blockchain (relatively speaking) gets smaller and smaller, or the computing resources available to run bitcoin become too expensive and bitcoin fails.

Ultimately though the blockchain cannot continue to grow exponentially - at which point price performance of computing makes it easier and easier to run bitcoin (blockchain etc)
Skybuck (OP)
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December 01, 2013, 06:23:17 AM
 #16

Bitcoin userbase is growing 10 fold per year (hence the blockchain is growing 10 fold)

3 million users estimate now
30 million 1 year
300 million 2 years
3 billion 3 years
30 billion 4 years

Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.

Good point, however, people may start to use bitcoin more and more and more, still leading to some additional doubling of volumes Smiley which could still be somewhat problematic. Perhaps even 10 folds.

Perhaps games will start to use bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend it because it would make bitcoin explode almost literally, but we are all powerless to stop it.
If such a scenerio happens we could be seeing a 100x fold, 1000x fold or even 1000000 fold pretty much overnight. That'll be the end of it quite quickly.
Huge ammounts of transactions happen in some games. It would probably dwarf bitcoin easily.

In the real world, maybe transactions don't happen that much, at least the usual stuff, like groceries, buying a pizza, filling the car tank gas, then again there are also the financial world and such... which could have high volumes... imagine all of that switching to bitcoin ? SmileySmileySmiley

Yes there are all sorts of extra factors - but there is a tipping point somewhere were either Moore's law takes over and the blockchain (relatively speaking) gets smaller and smaller, or the computing resources available to run bitcoin become too expensive and bitcoin fails. (Changing the hash algorithm is apperently possible, but are there any quantum safe hashing algorithms ? however all bitcoin accounts/addresses may be cracked and perhaps history changed).

Ultimately though the blockchain cannot continue to grow exponentially - at which point price performance of computing makes it easier and easier to run bitcoin (blockchain etc)

Perhaps quantum harddisks will come to exist, perhaps they can store much more information Wink

Perhaps quantum computers can keep running bitcoin, or perhaps they will crack bitcoin and then it spectacularly fails Smiley (apperently hash algorithm can be changed but are there any quantum safe hashing algorithms ? rsa/bitcoin accounts/addresses would be cracked/plundered ? or perhaps does that curve algorithm protect against quantum attacks ? Wink blockchain could probably be faked/recomputed though could be detected Wink)

Another good point you make, even with a distributed database, it cannot continue to grow exponentially, unless maybe quantum computers can handle exponential growth ? Wink

When bitcoin runs out of harddisk space it will probaby stop functioning and it will simply crash/fail like you say.

However some people may still have some harddisk space so then perhaps it will continue to function for those lucky few Wink

I think in reality big corporations like google, microsoft, facebook might take over and store the blockchain on their harddisks which they have plenty of.

Thus bitcoin might turn into a client/server system which pretty much make it the biggest fail ever Smiley it will happily continue running, but it's original idea is d.e.a.d Smiley

LOL, but then the funny part is... even google/microsoft/facebook will have the exponential growth and eventually will have to give up ? Smiley
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December 01, 2013, 06:41:29 AM
 #17

Read the title of this thread, now I'm seeking a tree.

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December 01, 2013, 10:35:17 AM
 #18

Quote from: dancupid link=topic=354103.msg3789631#msg3789631 date=1385876782
[size=18pt
Before 6 years there will not be enough people left in the world to become bitcoin users
Moore's law will outpace bitcoin once there are no more people left to use bitcoin.[/size]

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December 01, 2013, 10:45:03 AM
 #19

it's nice point one must find a solution to this problem.

and "we" will.

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December 01, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
 #20

This indeed is something the coders have to think about! However as more people are going to use bitcoin the value will keep rising, I think transactions will become more behind the 0.0. Which is the benefit of having a completely digital currency. However a wallet like multibit which calculates the bitcoin amount compared to the USD value would be a must have for daily use.
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