Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults

[bryant.coleman]

See this. Absolute madness. If someone gets $2,800 pm for free without doing any work, then how many adults will actually work for a living? In effect this is punishing hard working people, while rewarding the welfare kings and queens.

[Lethn]

That's really old news you know it's also not mathematically viable.

[herzmeister]

Basic income is also discussed in Germany (esp. by the Pirate Party), although not that high in amount by far (maybe ~ EUR 800-1000 a month).

It would be economically viable if it would replace all other forms of already existing subsidies and would therefore dramatically reduce the related bureaucracy (if that would actually happen in practice is another question).

They made surveys and almost everybody said they would still go to work, so the argument "no one would work" is not viable.

It would take away existential fears, and people would prefer the work they actually would love to do, resulting in a boost of productivity.

None other than Milton Friedman proposed a negative income tax, which is a similar model.

It makes sense in a more and more automated society; production is unfortunately already quite centralized and controlled by a few corporations, and their profit and wealth does not easily flow back into society. Stock markets are corrupted, laymen cannot easily have their (literal) shares of this wealth.

The problem I see is, of course, the centralization that would be required to manage the collection and distribution of wealth, and the corruptible bureaucracy that would almost certainly come with that. States (and central banks) can't even manage money supply, as we all know.

Maybe a more libertarian-compatible approach would be to try this model in several independent city states (for which inhabitants would simply own shares) and see how it would work out.

An alternative might be a more syndicalist model: People own shares of the means of production directly, similar to how it's done at Mondragón: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-obHJfTaQvw

[Sindelar1938]

There is only so much fat in the system to play with

Matter of time before the Northern European welfare model implodes

[Jcw188]

Taxes used to be so much higher (I'm talking about top brackets) in the US and there was less equality, now they all want lower taxes but the rich don't really share in terms of the proportion they receive.  In the US it doesn't seem like "trickle down" is working, which is one reason I like BTC.

[niothor]

2 millions Romanian gypsies heading their way.
I know how it will end.

[bryant.coleman]

2 millions Romanian gypsies heading their way.
I know how it will end.

Switzerland is having tough immigration laws, and it doesn't have to follow the orders from the EU. So no chance.

On the other hand, plenty of them are heading towards England.

[beetcoin]

while i think that the elite don't pay enough taxes (at least in the U.S.), a minimum $2,800 monthly income rate is a bit outrageous. is this pre-tax or after? either way, that's almost a minimum of $34k a year for everyone.. the cost of everything is probably going to rise out of proportion.

[bryant.coleman]

while i think that the elite don't pay enough taxes (at least in the U.S.)

You can't punish someone for being rich. But I'd support increasing the inheritance tax though.

It is true that tax rates are lower in the US when compared to the EU. But insane tax rates (75% as in the case of France) can trigger complete economic collapse and capital flight. Just wait for a few years... and we will see the economic collapse of a large number of EU nations.

[Mike Christ]

Wouldn't this push business out of Switzerland?  Let them do it.

[Ekaros]

Wouldn't this push business out of Switzerland?  Let them do it.

On other hand pretty much all of the income would go to spending. And most of it on local level. Rich people don't spend all their money, poor and middle class do...

2.8k is probably too high, but at resonable level I see it as positive way of doing things.

[bryant.coleman]

I am quite surprised to see so much support for the welfare state model here.....

The population of Switzerland is 8 million (of which ~5.6m are adults). At 2.8K USD per month, the benefits will cost the Swiss exchequer some $ 188 billion. The current tax revenue is much lower than this figure.

So from where the remaining money will come? Remember that the taxes in Switzerland are already very high.

[jballs]

That's really old news you know it's also not mathematically viable.

you think work is hard you should try being homeless.

I think the 2,800 was overly ambitious but the concept is a good one. Once the only job left is robot repairman, even robot repairmen won't be able to make a decent living.

You can only kill so many jobs with technology before you have to acknowledge that you aren't subsidizing lazy people, you are compensating them for replacing their livelihood and all alternative livelihoods with a microchip.

What's a mere human to do...


(edit - sorry I meant to quote OP )

[niothor]

2 millions Romanian gypsies heading their way.
I know how it will end.

Switzerland is having tough immigration laws, and it doesn't have to follow the orders from the EU. So no chance.

On the other hand, plenty of them are heading towards England.

Yeah , right!
Like some laws can stop those people.
They've already reached Norway and Sweden , what do you think it will stop them from Switzerland?
How can you stop them without shooting them?

[bryant.coleman]

Yeah , right!
Like some laws can stop those people.
They've already reached Norway and Sweden , what do you think it will stop them from Switzerland?
How can you stop them without shooting them?

Norway and Sweden are welfare states and are part of the EU. They should abide by the European laws on immigration. They can't deport the gypsies.

On the other hand, Switzerland is not a part of the EU. It is an independent country, which can deport people illegally entering its territory.

[niothor]

Yeah , right!
Like some laws can stop those people.
They've already reached Norway and Sweden , what do you think it will stop them from Switzerland?
How can you stop them without shooting them?

Norway and Sweden are welfare states and are part of the EU. They should abide by the European laws on immigration. They can't deport the gypsies.

On the other hand, Switzerland is not a part of the EU. It is an independent country, which can deport people illegally entering its territory.

Before we continue on this topic , where do you leave (name the country I don't need your address , not sending you any pizza and how much do you know about this gypsy community?

[compro01]

Remember that the taxes in Switzerland are already very high.

By American standards maybe, but by the standards of most of the rest of the developed world, they're on the low side as a percentage of the GDP.

Norway and Sweden are welfare states and are part of the EU. They should abide by the European laws on immigration. They can't deport the gypsies.

Norway is not part of the EU.  They're part of the Schengen zone, the European Economic Area, and the European Free Trade Association, but not part of the European Union, much like the Swiss, except that the Swiss aren't in the EEA.

There's a bunch of "European" groups.  Here's how they fit together.

edit : Bah.  I guess SMF doesn't like svgs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg

[bryant.coleman]

Before we continue on this topic , where do you leave (name the country I don't need your address , not sending you any pizza and how much do you know about this gypsy community?

I live outside the EU. And I know enough about the Roma, to distinguish a Lovari from a Kalderash and a Sinti from a Vlax.

I get your point. You are claiming that the local law enforcement will be powerless against the Roma, as has been the case in France, Italy, Spain.etc

Anyway both of us agree that measure will lead to the financial ruin of Switzerland. 

By American standards maybe, but by the standards of most of the rest of the developed world, they're on the low side as a percentage of the GDP.

Norway is not part of the EU.  They're part of the Schengen zone, the European Economic Area, and the European Free Trade Association, but not part of the European Union, much like the Swiss, except that the Swiss aren't in the EEA.

My bad. Forgot that Norway was outside the EU. They are quite rich (due to oil) and don't want to give two-thirds of that to the EU budget.

But as far as I know, the immigration controls of all Scandinavian countries (perhaps with the exceptions of Denmark and Iceland) are near-Zero. At least when compared to Switzerland, the immigration rules in Norway are more or less toothless.

[niothor]

Before we continue on this topic , where do you leave (name the country I don't need your address , not sending you any pizza and how much do you know about this gypsy community?

I live outside the EU. And I know enough about the Roma, to distinguish a Lovari from a Kalderash and a Sinti from a Vlax.

I get your point. You are claiming that the local law enforcement will be powerless against the Roma, as has been the case in France, Italy, Spain.etc

I've been living with them close to my neighborhood for almost 20 years.
Even before Romania was into the EU , those people had no problem entering Italy and Germany. No r will they have with Switzerland.

You can't deal with people who grow kids and send them 1 years to school to qualify for state aid , then send them to beg at every corner.
You can't deal with people that refuse to work for 500 euros , but will gladly stay and watch the sun all day long for 100.
You can't deal with people that refuse work , but would rather spend hours and hours watching an unguarded road then work 5 house to cut cables or street signs or even railway tracks to sold them for a few pennies.
You can deal with people you spend so much money into deportation that come the next day back.


Also , vlax are not gypsies.
And the term Roma is used for far more peoples than gypsies alone.

[beetcoin]

while i think that the elite don't pay enough taxes (at least in the U.S.)

You can't punish someone for being rich. But I'd support increasing the inheritance tax though.

It is true that tax rates are lower in the US when compared to the EU. But insane tax rates (75% as in the case of France) can trigger complete economic collapse and capital flight. Just wait for a few years... and we will see the economic collapse of a large number of EU nations.

well, i don't support overtaxation of the wealthy, but there's a reason why there's all that money in offshare accounts. if everybody paid a flat tax and loopholes weren't exploited, that would probably bring in more revenues. it'd effectively be a tax increase on the wealthy.