Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults

[Kiki112]

while i think that the elite don't pay enough taxes (at least in the U.S.)

You can't punish someone for being rich. But I'd support increasing the inheritance tax though.

It is true that tax rates are lower in the US when compared to the EU. But insane tax rates (75% as in the case of France) can trigger complete economic collapse and capital flight. Just wait for a few years... and we will see the economic collapse of a large number of EU nations.

well, i don't support overtaxation of the wealthy, but there's a reason why there's all that money in offshare accounts. if everybody paid a flat tax and loopholes weren't exploited, that would probably bring in more revenues. it'd effectively be a tax increase on the wealthy.

I agree with the taxation of the wealthy, I mean why tax the poor for small amounts of money when you can tax the wealthy for big amounts of money?

about the "basic income", it is a great idea but what would we lose with it?
a lot of stuff wouldn't be free anymore would it?

[bryant.coleman]

I've been living with them close to my neighborhood for almost 20 years.
Even before Romania was into the EU , those people had no problem entering Italy and Germany. No r will they have with Switzerland.

Then it may be time for you to change your place of residence. I have never lived close to them, but had enough bad experience. 

You can't deal with people who grow kids and send them 1 years to school to qualify for state aid , then send them to beg at every corner.
You can't deal with people that refuse to work for 500 euros , but will gladly stay and watch the sun all day long for 100.
You can't deal with people that refuse work , but would rather spend hours and hours watching an unguarded road then work 5 house to cut cables or street signs or even railway tracks to sold them for a few pennies.

The problem is with the lax rules which some of the EU nations are having. The only place where these people lived by abiding the laws were in the former USSR, which severely punished any sort of crime. However, ever since the fall of the USSR, gypsy crime has increased by manifold in Russia and Ukraine.

You can deal with people you spend so much money into deportation that come the next day back.

If they come back, then put them in jail.

Also , vlax are not gypsies. And the term Roma is used for far more peoples than gypsies alone.

Yes... Vlax is a white ethnic group (Used to speak the now near-extinct Aromanian language). However, a subgroup of the Roma are known as Vlax Roma (mostly found in the former Yugoslavia).

[hawkeye]

I am quite surprised to see so much support for the welfare state model here.....  

Me also.  But I've seen it over and over again in thread after thread here.  It seems there's a long way to go to get economic truths to people.

Maybe when you buy a currency which goes up in value by such massive amounts in a short period of time you start to believe money comes from thin air.

With the basic income you would also see a great deal of inflation.  You have money being spent with much less production of goods.  More money chasing less goods and services equals inflation.   Which would then require a bigger basic income which just increases the cycle of inflation.

[bryant.coleman]

With the basic income you would also see a great deal of inflation.  You have money being spent with much less production of goods.  More money chasing less goods and services equals inflation.   Which would then require a bigger basic income which just increases the cycle of inflation.

Definitely. Inflation will skyrocket. People will be careful with the money as long as they earn it. When they get it for free, money loses value.

Someone has to answer my question which I had posted yesterday. From where the $188 billion will come up for these welfare payments?

Hard work was what made Switzerland the wealthy nation which it is today. If someone want to turn it to a nation of lazy boozers, then I can't help.

[niothor]

I've been living with them close to my neighborhood for almost 20 years.
Even before Romania was into the EU , those people had no problem entering Italy and Germany. No r will they have with Switzerland.

Then it may be time for you to change your place of residence. I have never lived close to them, but had enough bad experience. 

Well they don't leave exactly in my neighborhood , and in this 300k town , this is the safest place.
Currently there is no town without such a community that is spreading inst tentacle everywhere.

[u9y42]

I'm surprised no one posted this yet: http://basicincome2013.eu/. Basically the same proposal, but for Europe. Also, this movie might help explain a little better how it could work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExRs75isitw.

I for one would like to see this implemented in a small scale, to test it out, pretty much like it was done in Canada with Mincome.

[jballs]

Someone has to answer my question which I had posted yesterday. From where the $188 billion will come up for these welfare payments?

Hard work was what made Switzerland the wealthy nation which it is today. If someone want to turn it to a nation of lazy boozers, then I can't help.

Your question is really the only valid argument against this proposal. Also the only factor one ought to consider it not feasible.

Hard work is overrated though. People with more free time are more creative and innovative. They take better care of themselves and their families. The idea of everyone getting paid as being inflationary is pretty antiquated. People don't eat 12 meals a day because they can suddenly afford more than 3. Automation and mass production brings costs down for larger consumption base, and globalisation distorts the issue a lot. You think the price of iphones would go up if everyone is Switzerland could afford one? There's only 8 million  people there.

Now as for giving everyone in China 28k that would be more interesting. Because they would stop going to Foxconn for sure. That would drive the price of an iphone way way higher. Seems an obvious primary question, should countries support global firms whose employment practices would be illegal in the destination market? If an unemployed Swiss is getting 28k a year and buys an iphone made by a kid working 100 hours a week for 80 cents an hour... well that seems pretty messed up. Of course somewhere in Switzerland is a banker's grandkid living on the interest garnered off fencing the teeth of holocaust victims. He's not working hard.
 
Inequality is more complicated nowadays than hard work= success. That's just a myth perpetrated by successful hard working people to justify their greed and selfishness. I include myself in this category. I've worked hard but not any harder than some third worlder who will never have the chances I was given just by being born.

 

[bryant.coleman]

Your question is really the only valid argument against this proposal. Also the only factor one ought to consider it not feasible.

OK... Tax revenue and all other revenue received by the Swiss government is much less than the 188 billion USD required for this plan. So from where the remaining money will come?

[niothor]

Your question is really the only valid argument against this proposal. Also the only factor one ought to consider it not feasible.

OK... Tax revenue and all other revenue received by the Swiss government is much less than the 188 billion USD required for this plan. So from where the remaining money will come?

from air , and there is plenty in their heads

[bryant.coleman]

from air , and there is plenty in their heads

Good one. I am asking this for the past many days and those who supports this measure are not ready to answer me. Very basic question... but so far I've got no answers.

[ErisDiscordia]

By all means, try it!

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, but at least we'll find out what happens.

What I like about this is that it acknowledges that technology keeps making jobs disappear and you can't have a system where everyone has to keep working to earn money in order to survive in the face of such a development.

OTOH since this is a government in charge of doing this, I shudder at how badly they will probably mess it up 

[bitdragon]

this is one of the better topics coming up for a vote and judging by how many times we get to vote, it was bound to happen; although the chances of it passing are pretty slim.
Some basic cleaning up and the obvious, in my humble opinion, misunderstanding.

The obvious comment is the source of payment, who will pay so much money !!
In my ideal conception, this one is very easily solved considering the roughly 480 Billion Euros accumulated by the Swiss National Bank in just a few years, with the grandiose illusion of maintaining a minimum exchange rate and bailing out the Euro and the more real reason of European solidarity and piling on debt on the Swiss economy. This is lost money in the near future anyway, so one could even consider just handing out Euros.

Secondly, as pointed out, this money is readily reinjected in the economy providing ripple effects, so just printing out the damn paper with 0% interest rate and handing it out to the citizens would work just fine.
And no, not unlimited amounts like now leading to potential massive inflation (be it to the banks in the US for example who then get to 'lend' out that free money, eventually extracting more money than was put in), but a basic amount with no exponential interest and where the money circulates to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. Some balancing mechanism through taxes to take money out and so on depending on growth, infrastructure etc. How someone can be okay with handing out free money to banks and not to the end user directly is puzzling.

Thirdly, this idea of bums just living off the system misses the larger issue at hand of providing dignity and basic living conditions and the possibility of exploring and delving into what interests us and providing value to the lot that way rather than just surviving. It is of my belief that ignorance is the cause of most problems and our collective naiveness has lead us down a road with pretty bad choices and negative consequences. Actually putting into use technology and a sound monetary system would be a good thing in our current times. If someone wants to bum around all his life, so be it; he will do less damage to the collective that way anyway and somehow that the current rat race can serve as an incentive to do something good is rubbish, or at a minimum, a reflection of pretty poor intelligence.

Furthermore, as additional benefits, whole piles of bureucracy and useless paperwork for the unemployment agencies, Social services and actually put out of business this criminal enterprise of handing out credit at 18% interest rate to buy a couch, can be be reduced and all this energy put to some venture more profitable for everyone.

Lastly, that this would attract all the foreigners !! OMG !! Right, lets just follow the EU and in the words of our late National bank president, let's strive to make the swiss franc less attractive so as not to set the example but rather join in the race to the bottom so that no one would want to come. That's a vicious circle and not a virtuous one and is absurd..
Despite the progress made by the gangsters, there is still a process to go through before gaining the nationality. And doing a revote on the Schengen stuff that passed at 50.1% would make things clearer.

The scam of this entire monetary system worldwide is to such an extreme that the relevance and pertinence of a sound system and dare I say common sense, is difficult to grasp.

[jones31]

Before we continue on this topic , where do you leave (name the country I don't need your address , not sending you any pizza and how much do you know about this gypsy community?

I live outside the EU. And I know enough about the Roma, to distinguish a Lovari from a Kalderash and a Sinti from a Vlax.

I get your point. You are claiming that the local law enforcement will be powerless against the Roma, as has been the case in France, Italy, Spain.etc

I've been living with them close to my neighborhood for almost 20 years.
Even before Romania was into the EU , those people had no problem entering Italy and Germany. No r will they have with Switzerland.

You can't deal with people who grow kids and send them 1 years to school to qualify for state aid , then send them to beg at every corner.
You can't deal with people that refuse to work for 500 euros , but will gladly stay and watch the sun all day long for 100.
You can't deal with people that refuse work , but would rather spend hours and hours watching an unguarded road then work 5 house to cut cables or street signs or even railway tracks to sold them for a few pennies.
You can deal with people you spend so much money into deportation that come the next day back.


Also , vlax are not gypsies.
And the term Roma is used for far more peoples than gypsies alone.

These westerners have no idea with what they will have to deal.
All they do all day it's shout , save the stray dogs , save the gypsy  from Romania , but wait until they will have the problem on their doorstep.
Ps. I'm from BUCURESTI

[LiteCoinGuy]

i would not support that but i like their way of democracy, enviable.

[cdtc]

I think that is a great thing if it gets accepted.Then finally you dont
have to think about how to put some food on the table and you could do things
that you really like doing.

[psybits]

lol so many people in this thread concerned with nation states and their borders, and reasoning in xenophobic and scarcity thinking, hasn't Bitcoin taught you anything?

[zedicus]

Excuse my ignorance! What is a gypsy? Google images gives me women that looks like they are going to the Renaissance Fair.


https://www.google.com/search?q=gypsy&client=firefox-a&hs=2Fs&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2SulUoLjO5HZoAS0-IGACQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=759

[bryant.coleman]

The obvious comment is the source of payment, who will pay so much money !!
In my ideal conception, this one is very easily solved considering the roughly 480 Billion Euros accumulated by the Swiss National Bank in just a few years, with the grandiose illusion of maintaining a minimum exchange rate and bailing out the Euro and the more real reason of European solidarity and piling on debt on the Swiss economy. This is lost money in the near future anyway, so one could even consider just handing out Euros.

It is not that easy. The 480 billion Euros currently held by the Swiss bank is the amount accumulated over many decades. It won't be enough for 3 years of handouts. After that what they'll do?

Also, even if the Swiss bank offloads just one-third of its reserves, the Swiss Franc will collapse by 100% or 200%. (Right now 1 CHF = 1.1 USD, it can become 1 CHF = 0.4 or 0.5 USD).

[Schleicher]

Excuse my ignorance! What is a gypsy? Google images gives me women that looks like they are going to the Renaissance Fair.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gypsy&client=firefox-a&hs=2Fs&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2SulUoLjO5HZoAS0-IGACQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=759

Well, more like this I think:

27-_MG_4494 by PRESSEFOTOS, on Flickr

[zedicus]

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/my-big-fat-gypsy-wedding/lists/all-about-gypsies.htm

Today i learned :     They dont like the lower half of their bodies.



Back to the free money nonsense..