the huge Problem that most people doesn't really understand

[mmitech]

to be honest after watching the poverty in Europe report, I feel more comfortable holding some bitcoins than having fiat, each time the price crash/correct than bounce back it makes me more confident about the whole concept of Bitcoin.

I think most of investors look to the quick profit bitcoin can offers, which is really impressive but not all of you here see what is going on around the world, the infinity of money printing (inflation) is killing the economy. and believe me, smart politicians knows that there is an issue and they also know that there is no way to fix it with the existing system, and they also doesn't know what to do, so they keep doing the same thing to give the illusion of fixing it which is temporary and they keep repeating the same thing.


I am sure most of you (older than 30) notice the loss in purchase power of your local currency, at least I do, I remember when I was 6-8 years old going to small store near my home buying milk and bread which cost at least 10 times less what it cost today, my father has been working all his life and could not save anything, my mother did work until her company did fire half of the workers than dramaticly shut down, she couldn't get another job so she stayed at home and took care of us, my father's duty was to offer a good  education to us (a brother and 3 sisters) and he did all he could and succeed.

if people take just a moment and think about how bad the economy is now, everyone would invest in bitcoin, not to talk about 20 years ago, just few years ago (2007-2008) I paid €2 for my cigarettes and less than €1  for gasoline , around €0.2 for bread (1 baguette) , today I pay €3.6 for cigarettes and €1.5 for gasoline and more than 0.3 for bread. the worst thing is my salary didn't almost change.

I did mention my parents for a reason, today when I think about the whole system, I am really thankful that my father couldn't save money, because even with the interest the bank would give him, that money would be worth nothing because of the high level of inflation. though he could buy some gold or some real estate and this would solve the problem, but to do so you have to have a good amount of money that you can invest, which he didn't have at the time.

but if bitcoin existed the whole situation would be different, now I feel that I am lucky and I think that all of you are lucky that you have been introduced to Bitcoin, and more people should know about it, this seems the only way out (solution).

take few minutes and watch this video, I am sure it is almost the same where you live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_NxUFIRm9k&feature=youtu.be

[laowai80]

The best I can say here is quit smoking

[mmitech]

The best I can say here is quit smoking

working on it

[BitchicksHusband]

to be honest after watching the poverty in Europe report, I feel more comfortable holding some bitcoins than having fiat, each time the price crash/correct than bounce back it makes me more confident about the whole concept of Bitcoin.

I think most of investors look to the quick profit bitcoin can offers, which is really impressive but not all of you here see what is going on around the world, the infinity of money printing (inflation) is killing the economy. and believe me, smart politicians knows that there is an issue and they also know that there is no way to fix it with the existing system, and they also doesn't know what to do, so they keep doing the same thing to give the illusion of fixing it which is temporary and they keep repeating the same thing.


I am sure most of you (older than 30) notice the loss in purchase power of your local currency, at least I do, I remember when I was 6-8 years old going to small store near my home buying milk and bread which cost at least 10 times less what it cost today, my father has been working all his life and could not save anything, my mother did work until the her company did fire half of the workers than dramaticly shut down, she couldn't get another job so she stayed at home and took care of us, my father's duty was to offer a good  education to us (a brother and 3 sisters) and he did all he could and succeed.

if people take just a moment and think about how bad the economy is now, everyone would invest in bitcoin, not to talk about 20 years ago, just few years ago (2007-2008) I paid €2 for my cigarettes and less than €1  for gasoline , around €0.2 for bread (1 baguette) , today I pay €3.6 for cigarettes and €1.5 for gasoline and more than 0.3 for bread. the worst thing is my salary didn't almost change.

I did mention my parents for a reason, today when I think about the whole system, I am really thankful that my father couldn't save money, because even with the interest the bank would give him, that money would be worth nothing because of the high level of inflation. though he could buy some gold or some real estate and this would solve the problem, but to do so you have to have a good amount of money that you can invest, which he didn't have at the time.

but if bitcoin existed the whole situation would be different, now I feel that I am lucky and I think that all of you are lucky that you have been introduced to Bitcoin, and more people should know about it, this seems the only way out (solution).

take few minutes and watch this video, I am sure it is almost the same where you live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_NxUFIRm9k&feature=youtu.be

Excellent point.  People have said this about gold in almost any era as well, but I agree that bitcoin is actually easier to work with.

[GriTBitS]

This is what I do to reassure that I will be fine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pID03RrmKow&noredirect=1

[kireinaha]

As long as you're working or earning money in some form, your salary should adjust for inflation so an annual rate of inflation of 3% or whatnot shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you also don't want to hold all your money in a savings account or your checking account, that's why it's a good idea to invest in a portfolio of stocks and bonds. Historical returns of these assets have outpaced inflation considerably, even if it misses the mark on the occasional year or two. If people are unable to save any money throughout a lifetime of working, then I'm sorry, but it's not the fault of inflation. It's a matter of personal saving.

[PenAndPaper]

After reading your post i still can't understand what is the huge problem that most people don't understand. Inflation?

[adamstgBit]

After reading your post i still can't understand what is the huge problem that most people don't understand. Inflation?

inflation is not the problem it is the symptom of the problem

[mmitech]

After reading your post i still can't understand what is the huge problem that most people don't understand. Inflation?

quick profit against the concept of bitcoin, and yes people do understand inflation but most of them doesn't take time and think about it, the story that I've wrote is to give a simple clear picture

[mmitech]

As long as you're working or earning money in some form, your salary should adjust for inflation so an annual rate of inflation of 3% or whatnot shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you also don't want to hold all your money in a savings account or your checking account, that's why it's a good idea to invest in a portfolio of stocks and bonds. Historical returns of these assets have outpaced inflation considerably, even if it misses the mark on the occasional year or two. If people are unable to save any money throughout a lifetime of working, then I'm sorry, but it's not the fault of inflation. It's a matter of personal saving.

that is the exact horse shit I am talking about, take time and think about it, they keep doing the same shit over and over and all over again, prices goes up 10% and they raise the minimum wage 3% to give you the illusion that they are fixing problems....

[kireinaha]

As long as you're working or earning money in some form, your salary should adjust for inflation so an annual rate of inflation of 3% or whatnot shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you also don't want to hold all your money in a savings account or your checking account, that's why it's a good idea to invest in a portfolio of stocks and bonds. Historical returns of these assets have outpaced inflation considerably, even if it misses the mark on the occasional year or two. If people are unable to save any money throughout a lifetime of working, then I'm sorry, but it's not the fault of inflation. It's a matter of personal saving.

that is the exact horse shit I am talking about, take time and think about it, they keep doing the same shit over and over and all over again, prices goes up 10% and they raise the minimum wage 3% to give you the illusion that they are fixing problems....

You're just making an emotional argument. I'm not sure where you live, but most developed nations strive to keep the rate of inflation at an annual rate of 2 or 3% year over year, and that's generally how it goes. It doesn't go up 10% in one year, unless you live in Zimbabwe, in which case I apologize.

The purchasing power of minimum wage does fluctuate up and down a bit year over year, but that's just because it isn't changed on any regular interval. The current purchasing power of $7.25 is approximately the same or perhaps even higher than it was 50 years ago. But nobody has ever been expected to live independently or raise a family on minimum wage in the first place, it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow. If you're 30 and still making minimum wage, something has gone wrong.

You're going to have to elaborate on why inflation is so evil, more than just calling it "horse shit" and telling me to think about it. Maybe you're the one who needs to think a little harder.

[Roccker]

I am a noob, but also Bitcoins become more for the next like 100 years (well, after 2020 there is only a few Bitcoins left to mine https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png)  - right now 25 Bitcoins every 10 Minutes. That is 3600 Bitcoins per day. That is 3 600 000 (3 million, sixhoundredthousand) new dollars (when 1 BC = 1000 dollars) that have to flow into Bitcoins daily (buying orders) just to keep the current price of a Bitcoin.
How does this compare to how much more dollars are created?

[mmitech]

As long as you're working or earning money in some form, your salary should adjust for inflation so an annual rate of inflation of 3% or whatnot shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you also don't want to hold all your money in a savings account or your checking account, that's why it's a good idea to invest in a portfolio of stocks and bonds. Historical returns of these assets have outpaced inflation considerably, even if it misses the mark on the occasional year or two. If people are unable to save any money throughout a lifetime of working, then I'm sorry, but it's not the fault of inflation. It's a matter of personal saving.

that is the exact horse shit I am talking about, take time and think about it, they keep doing the same shit over and over and all over again, prices goes up 10% and they raise the minimum wage 3% to give you the illusion that they are fixing problems....

You're just making an emotional argument. I'm not sure where you live, but most developed nations strive to keep the rate of inflation at an annual rate of 2 or 3% year over year, and that's generally how it goes. It doesn't go up 10% in one year, unless you live in Zimbabwe, in which case I apologize.

The purchasing power of minimum wage does fluctuate up and down a bit year over year, but that's just because it isn't changed on any regular interval. The current purchasing power of $7.25 is approximately the same or perhaps even higher than it was 50 years ago. But nobody has ever been expected to live independently or raise a family on minimum wage in the first place, it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow. If you're 30 and still making minimum wage, something has gone wrong.

You're going to have to elaborate on why inflation is so evil, more than just calling it "horse shit" and telling me to think about it. Maybe you're the one who needs to think a little harder.

BTW, I don't make minimum wage, I am an IT engineer and I think my salary is fair, but do you think that inflation rate really reflect  prices ? I don't know about US dollars but in 5 years time period €100 buy more less today than it did at the defined period.

when you say  " it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow" you mean now I have learn something else and work extra shift so I will have more money ? like slavery ?


Edit: and yes my "adjusted" salary buy more less today than my old salary at the time, and yet you want to sell me the "developed nations" thing, well does EU count as a developed nation or not ?  

[BitchicksHusband]

After reading your post i still can't understand what is the huge problem that most people don't understand. Inflation?

My wife never really understood how much we lose to inflation until she started reading these forums.  She was always content to hold thousands of dollars in crappy savings accounts from the bank until recently.

My dad comes over and crows about how much interest he is getting locking his money up in a stupid bank CD.  (Ooh, 1 whole percent a year!  Wow!)  I don't have the heart to tell him I made that much in 4 hours yesterday.

[kireinaha]

BTW, I don't make minimum wage, I am an IT engineer and I think my salary is fair, but do you think that inflation rate really reflect  prices ? I don't know about US dollars but in 5 years time period €100 buy more less today than it did at the defined period.

I wasn't insinuating that you did work minimum wage, just that $7.25 an hour (US federal minimum wage) shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark for supporting a proper, independent lifestyle. It is intended more for students and other part-time workers whose living expenses are already supported by others.

when you say  " it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow" you mean now I have learn something else and work extra shift so I will have more money ? like slavery ?

It's a fact of life that people are only going to pay you for the value of the services you can provide them. If you need your car fixed, you need to pay a mechanic for his time and expertise. But you're probably not going to pay a guy to clean your windshield for you, right? Maybe $1 or something. So you need to develop your skills in order to advance in your career and earn more money.

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job? Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

[PenAndPaper]

After reading your post i still can't understand what is the huge problem that most people don't understand. Inflation?

My wife never really understood how much we lose to inflation until she started reading these forums.  She was always content to hold thousands of dollars in crappy savings accounts from the bank until recently.

My dad comes over and crows about how much interest he is getting locking his money up in a stupid bank CD.  (Ooh, 1 whole percent a year!  Wow!)  I don't have the heart to tell him I made that much in 4 hours yesterday.

What you describe is speculation and has nothing to do with inflation. Bitcoin flash crashed today. I guess you felt relieved that your dad wasn't around during the crash 

[caveden]

You're going to have to elaborate on why inflation is so evil, more than just calling it "horse shit" and telling me to think about it.

Inflation is evil because it takes purchasing power away from currency holders (and, in general, the poorer you are, the higher the percentage of your savings is based on currency), and gives it to the firsts to receive the newly printed money, namely governments, banks and those well connected to them. But even worse than that, inflation is evil because it creates capital destructive business cycles. All this crisis the world is living now would not have happened if central banks did not have the power to inflate their currencies in order to manipulate interest rates.

Oh, and BTW, the 2% rate you talk about, it's the official estimation on price inflation. The actual monetary inflation is much higher. What means that, if money supply was stable, average prices would decrease. It's not just 2% of purchasing power you lose per year, it's much more, since you'd have to consider how lower would prices be if there was no inflation.

[mmitech]

BTW, I don't make minimum wage, I am an IT engineer and I think my salary is fair, but do you think that inflation rate really reflect  prices ? I don't know about US dollars but in 5 years time period €100 buy more less today than it did at the defined period.

I wasn't insinuating that you did work minimum wage, just that $7.25 an hour (US federal minimum wage) shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark for supporting a proper, independent lifestyle. It is intended more for students and other part-time workers whose living expenses are already supported by others.

when you say  " it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow" you mean now I have learn something else and work extra shift so I will have more money ? like slavery ?

It's a fact of life that people are only going to pay you for the value of the services you can provide them. If you need your car fixed, you need to pay a mechanic for his time and expertise. But you're probably not going to pay a guy to clean your windshield for you, right? Maybe $1 or something. So you need to develop your skills in order to advance in your career and earn more money.

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job? Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

first I will answer your question:

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job?

this is a very interesting question, it is called a minimum wage for a reason, there is the popular agreed on salary for a certain job, lets talk IT stuff, if I am a kick ass associate and I think I deserve X raise and my company is willing to pay less than that, I cant argue too much about it for a reason you know why ? the unemployment pecentage and I guess not only in EU but all around the world is really high, they would just tell me you don't like it, the doors are wide quit your job, and they will get someone unemployed who is in need and is willing to work for way less money than me, this is the minimum wage you are so proud of. and in fact they don't give a shit about my skills as long as the guy will be able to keep things running.

Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

I did, just with Bitcoin, all other stuff I looked at before seemed as "horse shit", what I am upset at ? wow I dont know from where to start, just look at the world around you, you are giving me the impression that you live in different galaxy.



ok now I have a question for you, did you read satoshi white paper ? it is only few pages, go ahead read it come back read my OP and go back read the paper again and I will quote something from the OP to you to think about:

I think most of investors look to the quick profit bitcoin can offers, which is really impressive but not all of you here see what is going on around the world, the infinity of money printing (inflation) is killing the economy. and believe me, smart politicians knows that there is an issue and they also know that there is no way to fix it with the existing system, and they also doesn't know what to do, so they keep doing the same thing to give the illusion of fixing it which is temporary and they keep repeating the same thing.

now when you do what I suggested, I think we can discuss this matter in a better way.

  

[kireinaha]

BTW, I don't make minimum wage, I am an IT engineer and I think my salary is fair, but do you think that inflation rate really reflect  prices ? I don't know about US dollars but in 5 years time period €100 buy more less today than it did at the defined period.

I wasn't insinuating that you did work minimum wage, just that $7.25 an hour (US federal minimum wage) shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark for supporting a proper, independent lifestyle. It is intended more for students and other part-time workers whose living expenses are already supported by others.

when you say  " it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow" you mean now I have learn something else and work extra shift so I will have more money ? like slavery ?

It's a fact of life that people are only going to pay you for the value of the services you can provide them. If you need your car fixed, you need to pay a mechanic for his time and expertise. But you're probably not going to pay a guy to clean your windshield for you, right? Maybe $1 or something. So you need to develop your skills in order to advance in your career and earn more money.

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job? Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

first I will answer your question:

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job?

this is a very interesting question, it is called a minimum wage for a reason, there is the popular agreed on salary for a certain job, lets talk IT stuff, if I am a kick ass associate and I think I deserve X raise and my company is willing to pay less than that, I cant argue too much about it for a reason you know why ? the unemployment pecentage and I guess not only in EU but all around the world is really high, they would just tell me you don't like it, the doors are wide quit your job, and they will get someone unemployed who is in need and is willing to work for way less money than me, this is the minimum wage you are so proud of. and in fact they don't give a shit about my skills as long as the guy will be able to keep things running.

Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

I did, just with Bitcoin, all other stuff I looked at before seemed as "horse shit", what I am upset at ? wow I dont know from where to start, just look at the world around you, you are giving me the impression that you live in different galaxy.



ok now I have a question for you, did you read satoshi white paper ? it is only few pages, go ahead read it come back read my OP and go back read the paper again and I will quote something from the OP to you to think about:

I think most of investors look to the quick profit bitcoin can offers, which is really impressive but not all of you here see what is going on around the world, the infinity of money printing (inflation) is killing the economy. and believe me, smart politicians knows that there is an issue and they also know that there is no way to fix it with the existing system, and they also doesn't know what to do, so they keep doing the same thing to give the illusion of fixing it which is temporary and they keep repeating the same thing.

now when you do what I suggested, I think we can discuss this matter in a better way.

So in your world view, investing in anything other than bitcoin is horse shit.  There are millions of people who have practiced disciplined investing for years and now have large portfolios to show for their effort, and many of them may have never even heard of bitcoin. You think investing in stocks and bonds is horse shit? If you're just going to easily dismiss sound investments so easily, I don't think you can be helped.

I actually don't support minimum wage at all, I think it should be abolished so that employers can pay a fair market wages for the work needed. But you're the one who was citing it as an example of the "huge problem". If you're a "kick ass" engineer, but there are millions of other "kick ass" engineers available with the same skill set as you, then of course you're not going to make as much money anymore. Again, that's why you need to constantly learn and improve your skills so you can stay competitive in your career. An IT engineer should know this stuff. If an employer offers you less money than what you feel you're worth given all these conditions, then it's your job to leave and find someone who will pay you what you think you deserve. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp for some people.

It's socialist thinking like this (ie. I deserve a high wage just because I'm here and I exist) that put the world into the financial crisis that it's in... not the controlled inflation that people here love to groan about. Governments going into massive debt to support the entitled lifestyles of worker who wanted to retire at age 50 with full benefits, etc.

Controlled inflation of 2 or 3% annually is perfectly healthy and the sign of a growing economy, it's actually a great thing, not bad. What would be bad is if inflation was sudden and occurred at a very high rate, but that is not what we're discussing.

[mmitech]

BTW, I don't make minimum wage, I am an IT engineer and I think my salary is fair, but do you think that inflation rate really reflect  prices ? I don't know about US dollars but in 5 years time period €100 buy more less today than it did at the defined period.

I wasn't insinuating that you did work minimum wage, just that $7.25 an hour (US federal minimum wage) shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark for supporting a proper, independent lifestyle. It is intended more for students and other part-time workers whose living expenses are already supported by others.

when you say  " it's a worker's responsibility to develop their skills and the rest will follow" you mean now I have learn something else and work extra shift so I will have more money ? like slavery ?

It's a fact of life that people are only going to pay you for the value of the services you can provide them. If you need your car fixed, you need to pay a mechanic for his time and expertise. But you're probably not going to pay a guy to clean your windshield for you, right? Maybe $1 or something. So you need to develop your skills in order to advance in your career and earn more money.

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job? Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

first I will answer your question:

How you read into this as "slavery" is bizarre, unless you consider working for someone else for a fixed salary as slavery. Do you not get an annual raise at your IT job?

this is a very interesting question, it is called a minimum wage for a reason, there is the popular agreed on salary for a certain job, lets talk IT stuff, if I am a kick ass associate and I think I deserve X raise and my company is willing to pay less than that, I cant argue too much about it for a reason you know why ? the unemployment pecentage and I guess not only in EU but all around the world is really high, they would just tell me you don't like it, the doors are wide quit your job, and they will get someone unemployed who is in need and is willing to work for way less money than me, this is the minimum wage you are so proud of. and in fact they don't give a shit about my skills as long as the guy will be able to keep things running.

Do you not invest any of your money? If so, what are you so upset about?

I did, just with Bitcoin, all other stuff I looked at before seemed as "horse shit", what I am upset at ? wow I dont know from where to start, just look at the world around you, you are giving me the impression that you live in different galaxy.



ok now I have a question for you, did you read satoshi white paper ? it is only few pages, go ahead read it come back read my OP and go back read the paper again and I will quote something from the OP to you to think about:

I think most of investors look to the quick profit bitcoin can offers, which is really impressive but not all of you here see what is going on around the world, the infinity of money printing (inflation) is killing the economy. and believe me, smart politicians knows that there is an issue and they also know that there is no way to fix it with the existing system, and they also doesn't know what to do, so they keep doing the same thing to give the illusion of fixing it which is temporary and they keep repeating the same thing.

now when you do what I suggested, I think we can discuss this matter in a better way.

So in your world view, investing in anything other than bitcoin is horse shit.  There are millions of people who have practiced disciplined investing for years and now have large portfolios to show for their effort, and many of them may have never even heard of bitcoin. You think investing in stocks and bonds is horse shit? If you're just going to easily dismiss sound investments so easily, I don't think you can be helped.

I actually don't support minimum wage at all, I think it should be abolished so that employers can pay a fair market wages for the work needed. But you're the one who was citing it as an example of the "huge problem". If you're a "kick ass" engineer, but there are millions of other "kick ass" engineers available with the same skill set as you, then of course you're not going to make as much money anymore. Again, that's why you need to constantly learn and improve your skills so you can stay competitive in your career. An IT engineer should know this stuff. If an employer offers you less money than what you feel you're worth given all these conditions, then it's your job to leave and find someone who will pay you what you think you deserve. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp for some people.

It's socialist thinking like this (ie. I deserve a high wage just because I'm here and I exist) that put the world into the financial crisis that it's in... not the controlled inflation that people here love to groan about. Governments going into massive debt to support the entitled lifestyles of worker who wanted to retire at age 50 with full benefits, etc.

Controlled inflation of 2 or 3% annually is perfectly healthy and the sign of a growing economy, it's actually a great thing, not bad. What would be bad is if inflation was sudden and occurred at a very high rate, but that is not what we're discussing.

I think you are here for the quick profit not for the concept of Bitcoin, but sure there is nothing wrong about it, just stop acting like you understand the whole thing and go do what I suggested before.