Dwolla vs Paxum & MtGox vs Tradehill - for US bitcoiners

[Blackout]

I am having a hard time figuring out which is the best course of action for US based bitcoin users who want to partake in buying and selling them.  I have done some small trading on https://bitmarket.eu which has been fairly successful and it seems they always carry a higher value due to the fact that they in certain instances allow for paypal which is the fastest method, and since you are using paypal privately with other users for any service you are not technically violating paypal terms. This is I suppose what fuels the higher prices.

I have wanted to get on one of the more major trading sites or several of them but Tradehill forces U.S. users to only use paxum which I didn't like the looks of at all nor the ridiculous fees.  I am not fond of going to MtGox either as I'm not sure how I feel about the whole hack/rollback scenario.  Some say it increased their security but who knows... and how can they just 'rollback' prices I though once bitcoin blocks go they go?  But anyway, I'm sure there are a billion other threads on that.

Currently what are U.S. users doing to get money in and out of USD?  It seems like an incredible pain in the boot with excessive fees and middlemen no matter how you go.

Dwolla looks like the only other option but I am hearing a lot of bashing on it as well.

Would just like to hear what some of your opinions are and your "workflow" for converting bitcoins to USD and USD to bitcoins.

For instance, I had some extra funds laying around and I wanted to buy a bunch of coins when it hit the recent low, but there was no way for me to do it because of all the delays.. middle men.. and only dwolla or paxum.  Or does Mt Gox take direct bank wires in and out?  Is that safe?  How do American banks respond? How do they respond to dwolla?  Paxum looks a bit too creepy for me.

Experiences and workflow, and some sample amounts of trades and fees would be greatly appreciated.

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[Stephen Gornick]

since you are using paypal privately with other users for any service you are not technically violating paypal terms.

"Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that relate to transactions that are associated with the following Money Service Business activities: currency exchanges."
 - http://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full

That is pretty cut an dried.  They may not know the purpose of a payment, but that doesn't mean the transaction doesn't violate their terms (acceptable use policy):

Currently what are U.S. users doing to get money in and out of USD?  It seems like an incredible pain in the boot with excessive fees and middlemen no matter how you go.

The most convenient method might be to just mail a check.

ExchB:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ExchB
and HelloBitcoin:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/HelloBitcoin

Both will accept a check by mail for deposit of funds into your account.

For withdrawals, both will send you a check and both provide a way to withdraw funds directly to your bank with ACH.

Of course, if the delays are ultimately the issue, mailing a check is no faster and may even be slower.  Sending a bank wire then is still about the only way to be able to get to trade on those funds within about a day.

You might find someone to trade with locally:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Directories

[Blackout]

Well you are not using paypal with a currency exchange... you are using it with a private user. Paypal and the bitcoin.eu never interact.  I generally send the user an ebook or something. Or ask for information etc.
It is on the grey area and I don't want to jeapordize my paypal account because I do a lot of business with it for audio video work world wide  and it's been a godsend.  That's why I am looking on how to get in on the exchanges.

I guess a check is best but then you have to wait and wait. Wire transfers cost $50 and don't seem to be any faster. Why oh why are wire transfers not instant from your bank to them? Makes no sense. Paxum seems very shifty and want so much information and who are they? Yeah let me give you a retina and ass scan while I'm at it.

Thanks for the tips though. Please others chime in with how you work it.

[kjj]

No, not a grey area.  The list is prohibited activities, not prohibited entities.

[GeniuSxBoY]

how can they just 'rollback' prices I though once bitcoin blocks go they go?  But anyway, I'm sure there are a billion other threads on that.

Not btcs are moved until you withdraw or deposit them. They sit in a pot and Mtgox just uses the monetary figures in your account to simulate a trade.

[Serge]

how can they just 'rollback' prices I though once bitcoin blocks go they go?  But anyway, I'm sure there are a billion other threads on that.

Not btcs are moved until you withdraw or deposit them. They sit in a pot and Mtgox just uses the monetary figures in your account to simulate a trade.

Yes, bitcoin blockchain wasn't rolled back.  mtgox and all other exchanges and most online services do their own internal bookkeeping while incoming BTCs reside in their wallet, once you ready to pull out your BTCs, funds are dispersed from their wallet to yours.

[spend4bitcoins]

I am having a hard time figuring out which is the best course of action for US based bitcoin users who want to partake in buying and selling them.  I have done some small trading on https://bitmarket.eu which has been fairly successful and it seems they always carry a higher value due to the fact that they in certain instances allow for paypal which is the fastest method, and since you are using paypal privately with other users for any service you are not technically violating paypal terms. This is I suppose what fuels the higher prices.

I have wanted to get on one of the more major trading sites or several of them but Tradehill forces U.S. users to only use paxum which I didn't like the looks of at all nor the ridiculous fees.  I am not fond of going to MtGox either as I'm not sure how I feel about the whole hack/rollback scenario.  Some say it increased their security but who knows... and how can they just 'rollback' prices I though once bitcoin blocks go they go?  But anyway, I'm sure there are a billion other threads on that.

Currently what are U.S. users doing to get money in and out of USD?  It seems like an incredible pain in the boot with excessive fees and middlemen no matter how you go.

Dwolla looks like the only other option but I am hearing a lot of bashing on it as well.

Would just like to hear what some of your opinions are and your "workflow" for converting bitcoins to USD and USD to bitcoins.

For instance, I had some extra funds laying around and I wanted to buy a bunch of coins when it hit the recent low, but there was no way for me to do it because of all the delays.. middle men.. and only dwolla or paxum.  Or does Mt Gox take direct bank wires in and out?  Is that safe?  How do American banks respond? How do they respond to dwolla?  Paxum looks a bit too creepy for me.

Experiences and workflow, and some sample amounts of trades and fees would be greatly appreciated.

I'm in the same boat - dwolla is filled now got to find the right exchange will be watching this thread!

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

We're looking in to all options for getting funds in and out of TradeHill. When you remove all the reversible payment options from the list you aren't left with much.

Any suggestions that you have for non-reversible payment options we will evaluate and use if possible.

Jered

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I am having a hard time figuring out which is the best course of action for US based bitcoin users who want to partake in buying and selling them.

CampBX?

Currently what are U.S. users doing to get money in and out of USD?

Still using Dwolla when I have to, despite the various issues with it. Though I do not keep a balance at Dwolla.

[indio007]

Postal Money orders aren't reversible. You can also cash them at the post office AFAIK. 2nd day Priority mail is fairly cheap.
I'd say Western Union but their fees are ridiculous but they are less than $50 that Paxum wants for a wire transfer.
I don't know much about MoneyGram.

[Ridi]

Transferring funds has never been instant.  Instant transactions, like purchasing gas, are made on trust that the transaction will go through.  This is more trust than BTC warrants.  TradeHill and MtGox could accept reversible payments sources if they could be sure that once the payment was approved it could not be reversed.  (Unfortunately not the case with Dwolla.)

In any case you would have to wait for the funds to be approved.

[Blackout]

No, not a grey area.  The list is prohibited activities, not prohibited entities.

It is not prohibited to send money to any user for any reason.....  I can just send a friend money for no reason whatsoever.. it's my friend... I'm sending him money.

So if I do a transaction with someone for an ebook or other service, that is allowed.  If that person sends me bitcoins that is completely separate and had nothing to do with my paypal transaction.
 
If I send paypal money and say, "here's money for some bitcoins" THEN and only then have I broken terms of service.
Or if I paypal money TO a bitcoin service.

I have done neither of the above, so I have not broken any terms of service.

But anyway... that is another topic.... I am looking for the best U.S. way to buy and sell bitcoins without outrageous fees or long waits.

[indio007]

Another option to the ones I already listed . Travelers Checks. AAA has no fee travelers checks if you are a member.

Bank of America has online ordering of American Express Travelers checks to account holders

[kjj]

No, not a grey area.  The list is prohibited activities, not prohibited entities.

It is not prohibited to send money to any user for any reason.....  I can just send a friend money for no reason whatsoever.. it's my friend... I'm sending him money.

So if I do a transaction with someone for an ebook or other service, that is allowed.  If that person sends me bitcoins that is completely separate and had nothing to do with my paypal transaction.
 
If I send paypal money and say, "here's money for some bitcoins" THEN and only then have I broken terms of service.
Or if I paypal money TO a bitcoin service.

They'll laugh at you.

[WiseOldOwl]

Although MoneyPak is the absolute best for small amounts, MoneyPak has ridiculously low limits and could never support tradehill or mtgox's volume.
MoneyGram and WU are still king unfortunately,
MoneyGram Especially (Slightly better fees, and can be picked up 24/7)
30% of all transactions at https://bitcoinbux.com are MoneyGram related at the moment.

I am working non stop on an irreversible payment method to benefit all trades/exchanges, hope I can nail it.
The other thing my exchange offers is the ability to go to any "US Bank" branch in the united states and deposit cash to our business account. This is free, and fast.

Anyways these are my tips as I continue to sit on the proverbially sidelines of the large bitcoin exchanges.
I am considering incorporating a P2P exchange at our site, but I dont want to add yet another exchange to the market, we do seem to have a pretty good handle on things though.
Jared you seem pretty down to earth, I think I can help you with getting more cleared funds into your accounts.
Basically sell me tradehill dollars directly and I will sell them at a fee and let my company handle the funds transfers etc.

PM me.

[Blackout]

Note to above paypal comments - this is why I am NOT using paypal and why this thread is here...  I was just posting theoretically.

I'm in the same boat - dwolla is filled now got to find the right exchange will be watching this thread!

What do you mean dwolla is 'filled' now?

Anyway I just got an account on dwolla and went through the verification process and there seem to be no fees to wire money  in or out from your bank to dwolla?  or am I missing something?  So then I am forced to use Mt Gox vs Tradehill I guess... why would anyone pay a $50 fee to paxum and send them a suitcase of scanned documents of personal data lf if dwolla is doing it for nearly free (minus the small fees of what .25 or .50?), has an established rep, and without all the hassle?  What is the time then after dwolla gets your money to get it into mt gox from dwolla? Instant?

What's the hate on dwolla then? Seems just like paypal2 without all the harassment / rules and support for bitcoin exchanges.

7 years from now I should be able to buy some bit coins...

[aq]

What's the hate on dwolla then? Seems just like paypal2 without all the harassment / rules and support for bitcoin exchanges.

There is no hate on dwolla.
1) Send money to dwolla.
2) Use dwolla to buy bitcoins.
4) Get the bitcoins from the exchange.
3) Reverse your dwolla payment.
5) Congratulation, now you have Bitcoins for free.

[Blackout]

What's the hate on dwolla then? Seems just like paypal2 without all the harassment / rules and support for bitcoin exchanges.

There is no hate on dwolla.
1) Send money to dwolla.
2) Use dwolla to buy bitcoins.
4) Get the bitcoins from the exchange.
3) Reverse your dwolla payment.
5) Congratulation, now you have Bitcoins for free.

And you are banned from the exchange I assume so what would be the point if you are really participating in bitcoin?
You couldn't sell the bitcoins if the value went up... you'd have to go t o another exchange..... more hassle.
I am sure then if you repeated this dwolla would notice and block you as well.

Might work for a small time scam but it seems fairly useless and I imagine the profit that huge exchanges like mtgox is making far more that offsets the occasional little reverse charge fraudster.   Now the hack into their system.... THAT is of serious concern.

[BusmasterDMA]

Any suggestions that you have for non-reversible payment options we will evaluate and use if possible.

Another exchange recently announced the ability to deposit cash at Chase and Wells Fargo bank locations.  Sounds about as non-reversible as it gets.

[WiseOldOwl]

https://bitcoinbux.com

Deposit at any "US Bank" Branch near you.