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Author Topic: Itís not illegal to use real strawberries, itís just impossible if you donít wan  (Read 4915 times)
Cluster2k
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August 11, 2011, 12:35:33 PM
#21

A business that kills its clients, makes them sick or otherwise harms them won't be in business very long. If Mt. Gox didn't shore up its security, Tradehill would be the primary exchange today.

That business wouldn't survive... unless it serves tourists who transit the area and get sick later on.  The business wouldn't care if they served contaminated food to a tourist who will be gone within hours or even minutes.  The tourist will be in another town or country by the time they get sick.  The bad business would gets to stay and keep serving bad food to the next batch of tourists.

Self-regulating systems occur naturally. Government interferes.

Self regulation would be a handy system for the pharmaceutical industry.  The corporation gets to declare which treatment works and set their own prices for people who can't live without the treatment.  Treatment doesn't work and the patient dies?  The patient doesn't get to complain.  Can't afford it?  They didn't really need it anyway.

Government is the problem!

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.

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mobodick
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August 12, 2011, 02:54:11 PM
#22

Isn't it obvious that the latter *will* work better?

This is SUCH a dangerous assumption.
Imagine a certificate based situation.
Producer A produces milk, but his farm is in the neigborhood of Fukushima.
The milk is radioactive and he cannot sell it as a certified product.
He goes on to sell it to producer B that produces uncertified icecreams from it.
Producer B goes on to sell his icecreams in Europe and noone knows his milk came from next door to Fukushima.
Altho the customers know the icecream is uncertified they don't think it tastes spoiled and is much cheaper than certified ice cream and so they go ahead and consume the radioactive icecream en masse.

This is what you will get with a voluntarily certificate program.
It just won't work itself out in an economy where most people don't have enough money to pay for everything that they are made to beliefe they need.

There will always be a pretty hefty pressure om making products cheaper and consumers will let themselfs get poisoned or killed for buying the wrong products.
It is just the world we live in and it is just the outcome of human nature as it applies to our current civilization.

Yes, people need (want! demand!) to be taken care of because as an individual you have little influence over most aspects of society.
If you had to choose between a party that wants to make money off of you by selling food and the government then i know what i would choose to decide what is healthy.
That is why we need the regulations and that is why we have them,.

Now to get back to the story. It is a shame that the regulations turned out to be bad for that business. But these same regulations prevent the big ciompanies from selling poison.
And these big companies produce so much that there are a lot more people involved.
If they produced poisonous foodstuff then there will be a much bigger problem than this lady having to give up her icecream store.
So it's not so black and white as the article makes it out to be.

Another thing is that you can't over specify the law.
Too many exceptions and it will become unmanageable.
So, altho theoretically an exception in the law coul work for this case, there will be many more similar but unique cases, all of which will require their own exception to the law.

Remember that these kinds of laws about regulations were written up over the past decenia exactly because hygene became a problem as people started consuming more.
It is a direct consequence of our consumption habbits.
The lady in question should deal with it and so should all other people in the western world.
But of course, as stated above by someone else, we should look critically at all regulations and see if they are still usefull instruments to our society.


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August 12, 2011, 03:06:37 PM
#23

Self regulation would be a handy system for the pharmaceutical industry.  The corporation gets to declare which treatment works and set their own prices for people who can't live without the treatment.  Treatment doesn't work and the patient dies?  The patient doesn't get to complain.  Can't afford it?  They didn't really need it anyway.

It seems to me you are describing the present situation (government regulations).
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August 12, 2011, 03:23:06 PM
#24

A business that kills its clients, makes them sick or otherwise harms them won't be in business very long. If Mt. Gox didn't shore up its security, Tradehill would be the primary exchange today.

That business wouldn't survive... unless it serves tourists who transit the area and get sick later on.  The business wouldn't care if they served contaminated food to a tourist who will be gone within hours or even minutes.  The tourist will be in another town or country by the time they get sick.  The bad business would gets to stay and keep serving bad food to the next batch of tourists.

Do you not see how silly this is?  What is the business going to do?  Refuse to sell to locals?  Wear disguises the following day when the dead guy's family comes back?

Self-regulating systems occur naturally. Government interferes.

Self regulation would be a handy system for the pharmaceutical industry.  The corporation gets to declare which treatment works and set their own prices for people who can't live without the treatment.  Treatment doesn't work and the patient dies?  The patient doesn't get to complain.  Can't afford it?  They didn't really need it anyway.

LOL.  I don't even know where to start.

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August 12, 2011, 03:27:02 PM
#25

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.

Absolutely all of us will die.

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August 12, 2011, 03:40:10 PM
#26

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.
Absolutely all of us will die.

The evidence in support of your position isn't very good.  While 100% of all dead people have died at some point, the percentage of all people that ever lived that have died is far less than 100%.

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August 12, 2011, 03:45:40 PM
#27

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.
Absolutely all of us will die.

The evidence in support of your position isn't very good.  While 100% of all dead people have died at some point, the percentage of all people that ever lived that have died is far less than 100%.


Not true.
In fact, the only people that haven't got a 100% chance to die are the once that are alive at this moment.
The rest is certified 100% pure death.
Unless, of course, you want to talk vampires or zombies, but that would become a highly technical discussion i'm afraid...
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August 12, 2011, 04:20:34 PM
#28

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.

Absolutely all of us will die.

Prove it.

Btw, if absolutes dont exists, what can we say about sentences that say that absolutes dont exist?
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August 12, 2011, 05:42:20 PM
#29

When it comes to business, Rodney Dangerfield said it best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

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August 15, 2011, 08:56:40 AM
#30

If there is one assured thing in life, is that there are no absolutes.

Absolutely all of us will die.

Prove it.

Give me enough time and I will prove it to you.
I suppose that isn't true either, since when everyone alive now has died we won't have the consciousness required for me to turn to you and say "see?"

And there's always the case for robotics, which are slowly replacing various human organs and limbs until we get to the point where our entire internal systems are mechanized plus a CPU for a brain. Then we'll never die, we'll only ever be in "need of repair."

How would you like to be a part of that generation when it arrives? The generation that gets to make the leap from human bodies to full machine; from human frailty to eternal life (as long as Japan keeps making the replacement parts)? Then how will we reconcile our treatment of robots up until then, that we previously never felt robots were our equal? That we only ever assigned them to some trivial manual labour task like picking strawberries for ice cream?

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August 15, 2011, 09:18:43 AM
#31

Give me enough time and I will prove it to you.
I suppose that isn't true either, since when everyone alive now has died we won't have the consciousness required for me to turn to you and say "see?"

And there's always the case for robotics, which are slowly replacing various human organs and limbs until we get to the point where our entire internal systems are mechanized plus a CPU for a brain. Then we'll never die, we'll only ever be in "need of repair."

How would you like to be a part of that generation when it arrives? The generation that gets to make the leap from human bodies to full machine; from human frailty to eternal life (as long as Japan keeps making the replacement parts)? Then how will we reconcile our treatment of robots up until then, that we previously never felt robots were our equal? That we only ever assigned them to some trivial manual labour task like picking strawberries for ice cream?

Its the problem with the limit of knowledge.

Btw, you could still kill a synthetic "live" form. If you wipe out all its data and there is no copy of it, you have killed that synthetic.
Cluster2k
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August 15, 2011, 11:37:38 AM
#32

A business that kills its clients, makes them sick or otherwise harms them won't be in business very long. If Mt. Gox didn't shore up its security, Tradehill would be the primary exchange today.

That business wouldn't survive... unless it serves tourists who transit the area and get sick later on.  The business wouldn't care if they served contaminated food to a tourist who will be gone within hours or even minutes.  The tourist will be in another town or country by the time they get sick.  The bad business would gets to stay and keep serving bad food to the next batch of tourists.

Do you not see how silly this is?  What is the business going to do?  Refuse to sell to locals?  Wear disguises the following day when the dead guy's family comes back?

Have you ever become sick from food you ate during your travels?  I have, in Thailand.  It wasn't pretty.  No, I didn't die but at the time it felt almost as bad (for 7 days...).  What recourse do I have to the Thai vendor that sold me the food?  I was flying out to Singapore by the time the bug hit.  But I guess regulations (otherwise known as standards) are bad.  Anything should be allowed.  Let the free market decide.

Before anyone starts about only foreigners getting sick because the local population is 'used to it', the Thai tour guide was the first person to get ill from street food during the trip.  He asked me for anti diarrhea tablets!  Food borne diseases are a major cause of death in some Asian countries.  Also through pesky government intervention Singapore managed to get rid of Dengue Fever by making it illegal to keep standing water outside.  Yes, it's a criminal offense.  Harsh?  Yes.  Effective?  Just ask Malaysia.

Self-regulating systems occur naturally. Government interferes.

Self regulation would be a handy system for the pharmaceutical industry.  The corporation gets to declare which treatment works and set their own prices for people who can't live without the treatment.  Treatment doesn't work and the patient dies?  The patient doesn't get to complain.  Can't afford it?  They didn't really need it anyway.

LOL.  I don't even know where to start.

I realise the system I described above is akin to what happens in the USA.  Some other countries have subsidised medicines and bulk negotiated contracts for the supply of pharmaceuticals so that desperately sick people can afford them.  There's that nasty government intervention at work again.

When Australia was negotiating the free trade agreement with the USA a decade ago the USA wanted the AU government to scrap bulk discount negotiation for pharmaceuticals.  Who was pushing for that?  The US pharmaceutical industry.  Fortunately the AU government held firm and didn't cave in to free market pressure.  Who is more effective at negotiating a lower price?  The government, on behalf of 20 million potential customers, or the sick individual who needs the medicine and has no choice? 


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hugolp
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August 15, 2011, 12:34:05 PM
#33

That business wouldn't survive... unless it serves tourists who transit the area and get sick later on.  The business wouldn't care if they served contaminated food to a tourist who will be gone within hours or even minutes.  The tourist will be in another town or country by the time they get sick.  The bad business would gets to stay and keep serving bad food to the next batch of tourists.

Do you not see how silly this is?  What is the business going to do?  Refuse to sell to locals?  Wear disguises the following day when the dead guy's family comes back?
[/quote]

Have you ever become sick from food you ate during your travels?  I have, in Thailand.  It wasn't pretty.  No, I didn't die but at the time it felt almost as bad (for 7 days...).  What recourse do I have to the Thai vendor that sold me the food?  I was flying out to Singapore by the time the bug hit.  But I guess regulations (otherwise known as standards) are bad.  Anything should be allowed.  Let the free market decide.[/quote]

1. Are you saying Thailand is a free market?

2. I have gotten ill by eating food I bought from a european supermarket. My little anectode is supposed to be the deffinitive prove that regulations dont work?

Honestly, no shit they treat us like if we are stupid. Sometimes I think we are.
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August 17, 2011, 03:37:06 PM
#34

Honestly, no shit they treat us like if we are stupid. Sometimes I think we are.

Generally speaking, i think you're right,.
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August 18, 2011, 07:21:34 PM
#35

What if the relevant regulations just required her to label the product as unpasteurized or whatever, rather than prohibiting its sale?

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August 18, 2011, 07:27:45 PM
#36

What if the relevant regulations just required her to label the product as unpasteurized or whatever, rather than prohibiting its sale?

Thats not accetable because then she could compete with the big business and then what would that regulation be good for?
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August 18, 2011, 07:35:55 PM
#37

What if the relevant regulations just required her to label the product as unpasteurized or whatever, rather than prohibiting its sale?

That may work in this individual case.
But think of all the exceptions that will have to be made to accommodate other situations as well.
It would be impossible to manage that.
And allowing this one case would be unfair to all the others that would benefit from such increased resolution of regulations.
It will make the laws even more hellish than they are now and they will propably provide more work for lawyers for a long time to come.
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August 18, 2011, 07:54:51 PM
#38

What if the relevant regulations just required her to label the product as unpasteurized or whatever, rather than prohibiting its sale?

That may work in this individual case.
But think of all the exceptions that will have to be made to accommodate other situations as well.
It would be impossible to manage that.
And allowing this one case would be unfair to all the others that would benefit from such increased resolution of regulations.
It will make the laws even more hellish than they are now and they will propably provide more work for lawyers for a long time to come.
I'm not talking about an exception for this one person, I'm suggesting an alternate regulatory scheme where you could essentially sell whatever you wanted as long as it met certain labeling standards.

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August 18, 2011, 11:49:05 PM
#39

What if the relevant regulations just required her to label the product as unpasteurized or whatever, rather than prohibiting its sale?

That may work in this individual case.
But think of all the exceptions that will have to be made to accommodate other situations as well.
It would be impossible to manage that.
And allowing this one case would be unfair to all the others that would benefit from such increased resolution of regulations.
It will make the laws even more hellish than they are now and they will propably provide more work for lawyers for a long time to come.
I'm not talking about an exception for this one person, I'm suggesting an alternate regulatory scheme where you could essentially sell whatever you wanted as long as it met certain labeling standards.

+1

Snake oil salesmen should be allowed, provided that the bottle actually contains 100% snake oil.

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August 18, 2011, 11:57:24 PM
#40

You don't need government-enforced labeling standards either. I could easily start a grocery store with said standards for products and people would shop with me over the others for protection. It would be a perfect opportunity.
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