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Author Topic: Itís not illegal to use real strawberries, itís just impossible if you donít wan  (Read 4910 times)
hugolp
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August 10, 2011, 07:24:35 AM
#1

http://absurdresults.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/its-not-illegal-to-use-real-strawberries-its-just-impossible-if-you-dont-want-to-do-something-illegal/

So fucked up. The government officials outright recommend not using natural ingredients.

And this is the perfect conclussion:

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This case illustrates perfectly how, contrary to the myths espoused by managerial statists, big businesses benefit from regulations at the expense of smaller competitors and the public. The big boys get to either keep out an efficient smaller competitor or make her compete on their terms; she has to either comply or go out of business; and her customers lose the ability to buy a good they want.
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Ookami
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August 10, 2011, 10:00:31 AM
#2

Nice lobbying against regulations, but have you even started to think about the consequences of removing them ?
This might be an example of how the particular regulations are (maybe) not fit for a particular scenario, and maybe they should be adepted.
But the product in question is simply does not match hygiene standards for a product designed to be stored.
I am sure it is fine if served directly by the manufacturer, but as non-pasteurized milk is used and fresh fruit is added it can and will grow dangerous concentrations of bacteria especially fast if transported and stored.

I am not saying you should *trust* regulations, also I don't like overly expensive certification procedures, but without regulations people *will* sell you spoiled food. This *has* happened and lifes are at stake.
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August 10, 2011, 10:00:56 AM
#3

This, combined with the massive amounts of people that are jobless in the current system, makes me think it likely that the grey, unregulated, person-to-person economy will massively increase in the coming decade.

The "wall street economy" (with their government lobbyist and supporters) is effectively starting to exclude a larger and larger part of the population.

Those people either cannot afford the bigco's products anymore because their job was automated away, or want more "real" products which are no longer for sale through official channels; either because they are deemed unhealthy, dangerous, or otherwise "bad" by the government nannies.

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August 10, 2011, 11:08:26 AM
#4

It does not miss the point.
If it happens the damage is already done and without regulations you can defend yourself by saying "that's what the customer wants".
Also a web of trust won't help (or at least will be slow) if you consider there are big b2b vendors that sell tons of food at a time, you as a customer don't even know where say the meat you buy at a super market came from.

You know, I don't think you should not be able to choose the product you want, but to be able to do so you a) have to know the relevant data which only works if they are printed on the package and are easy to understand and b) it must be assured that the product matches said description.
You simply don't have the choice to say "I don't want ice cream that won't survive eating it over the course of a week" if you don't know which product that applies to or you can't trust the information you have because it is from the same company that produces the stuff.
Here in germany food companys have succesfully blocked a law that simply required to print more information onto the package because they fear an informed customer wouldn't buy their stuff if he knows whats he eats... think about it.
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August 10, 2011, 11:49:41 AM
#5

... without regulations people *will* sell you spoiled food ...
That's true, without a doubt, but it misses the point.

I disagree. Regulations don't change the presence of spoiled food.

She should sell her ice cream without regulations and be responsible for it. If you're going to introduce all these regulations and she follows them to the letter, the IHDA (whatever it is) should be responsible for the end product; but of course, the IHDA would never be held accountable.

In a free market, private 'regulators' develop and act as auditors who take responsibility (i.e. pay if sued) for the product after inspection. But with government intervention, you get worse products & higher costs.

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August 10, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
#6

Nice lobbying against regulations, but have you even started to think about the consequences of removing them ?
It's not lobbying against regulation, the article just says the regulation in this case clearly made to benefit the big industrial players. It doesn't say down with all regulations at all.

But the product in question is simply does not match hygiene standards for a product designed to be stored.
Like when fresh fish, peas or beans get frozen? You can freeze fresh strawberries without a problem...

I am sure it is fine if served directly by the manufacturer, but as non-pasteurized milk is used and fresh fruit is added it can and will grow dangerous concentrations of bacteria especially fast if transported and stored.
Like in a restaurant where you can eat a fresh salad with fresh fruits?
They have to transport it to their restaurant too. Fresh ingredients must be processed and eaten asap, true. No difference in the ice cream case. But this kind of strict regulation is imho Bullshit. In Italy you can get fresh ice cream made with seasonal fresh fruits and raw milk from the local milk farmer in nearly every village. Have you ever heard "Don't eat ice cream in Italy, it will make you sick"? All that people dying every day because they ate ice cream in italy...thousands!!!...it's all over the newz!!!1
I'm much more afraid of not knowing how dirty some restaurant's kitchen is than of fresh ice cream
EhVedadoOAnonimato
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August 10, 2011, 01:08:18 PM
#7

without regulations people *will* sell you spoiled food. This *has* happened and lifes are at stake.

And that *has* happened under severe regulation as well, like that German organic farm which killed tenths of people a couple months ago.

Why is it so hard to see the dramatic difference between violently imposed regulations, what's every government regulation is, and voluntarily chosen regulations, or "certifications"? Isn't it obvious that the latter *will* work better? Since they need producers to choose to get certified, they can't impose arbitrary stupid rules like the ones we commonly see in state regulations, otherwise producers will boycott them. And consumers should be always free to choose between certified producers* or take the chances with non certified ones, or those with "unknown certifications". Why should the lady in this typical example be required to abide to strict rules if she only sells her ice cream locally, to people who know her? And even if somebody who doesn't know her is willing to take a chance, he should be free to do so.

Learn one thing: state regulations are there only to protect established industries against competition. It has nothing to do with protecting consumers.

Every law that slightly harms a large and disperse number of people while intensively benefits a small group of people will be approved. That's the basic rule of public choice, people won't even care to know about regulations that potentially harms them just a little, since the cost of even knowing about them is higher than the cost it imposes on them. It is a rational behavior not to know about these laws being approved. On the other hand, the small number of people which will largely benefit from the law will probably be among those writing it, and lobbying hard ($$$) to get it approved.


* Actually, IMHO in a true free market consumers possibly wouldn't even need to care about certifications, that would be handled before the retail. Consumers would only need to know in which retailers they trust, and good retailers would then require proper certifications from producers they don't fully trust. But maybe there would be consumer-oriented certifications as well, one can't predict that.
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August 10, 2011, 01:48:07 PM
#8

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[Swanberg] says that a couple of weeks ago a representative from the Illinois Department of Public Health came to Logan Square Kitchen and informed her sheíd have to shut down if she did not get something called  Ēa dairy license.Ē

Swanberg and others in her field had operated for years now without ever hearing of such a thing and, indeed, they say, the Cityís Department of Business Affairs and Consumer Protection, to whom they applied for business licenses, never informed them they would need one to operate.


Of course you have to have a dairy license. That's the government's way of being able to stop you if you decide to be a felon and/or cause problems for the community. You have to have a license to prove you are legitimate and it is one notch of insurance that you're willing to be held accountable for your actions in the business. (The license fees stem from costs to keep records and pay salaries, nobody is going to do the job for free)

You saw what happened with Mybitcoin right? The community had trust and trust alone to use his services and they got smacked in their face. Now, had he had a business license, we'd know exactly where to find him and have a lot more leverage over him as a community.




ALSO...


We like to reward the people who take the time, money, and effort to be honest by going through the system. We do this by restricting people who didn't go through the system.
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August 10, 2011, 02:18:53 PM
#9

And that *has* happened under severe regulation as well, like that German organic farm which killed tenths of people a couple months ago.

It never stops amazing me how people are so indoctrinated as to believe the government regulations work and do away with all harm when the proof that they dont work is in front of them. But they learnt when they were kids that without regulations we will be all dying in a waste of chaos, and so we need them. The motto of the government should be: Get them young and profit the rest of your life.

The worse thing is that they really believe that by being violent against this woman for example, they are making a better world.

Quote
Of course you have to have a dairy license. That's the government's way of being able to stop you if you decide to be a felon and/or cause problems for the community. You have to have a license to prove you are legitimate and it is one notch of insurance that you're willing to be held accountable for your actions in the business. (The license fees stem from costs to keep records and pay salaries, nobody is going to do the job for free)

You saw what happened with Mybitcoin right? The community had trust and trust alone to use his services and they got smacked in their face. Now, had he had a business license, we'd know exactly where to find him and have a lot more leverage over him as a community.

This is the perfect example of the level at which we have arived. People actually trusted a nobody with huge quantities of money! We are so used to live in this world where theft is either regulated and indoctrinated as normal and any competition in the scam sector is prosecuted, that a lot of us dont know how to take the minimum precautions.

In this sense I think Bitcoin is great because it will teach us a couple of lessons that we desperately need.
miscreanity
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August 10, 2011, 02:56:57 PM
#10

Indoctrinated - very apropos term!

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

A business that kills its clients, makes them sick or otherwise harms them won't be in business very long. If Mt. Gox didn't shore up its security, Tradehill would be the primary exchange today.

Self-regulating systems occur naturally. Government interferes.

Government is the problem!

Bitcoin is an answer.
EhVedadoOAnonimato
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August 10, 2011, 03:03:18 PM
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Of course you have to have a dairy license. That's the government's way of being able to stop you if you decide to be a felon and/or cause problems for the community. You have to have a license to prove you are legitimate and it is one notch of insurance that you're willing to be held accountable for your actions in the business. (The license fees stem from costs to keep records and pay salaries, nobody is going to do the job for free)

You saw what happened with Mybitcoin right? The community had trust and trust alone to use his services and they got smacked in their face. Now, had he had a business license, we'd know exactly where to find him and have a lot more leverage over him as a community.

This is the perfect example of the level at which we have arived. People actually trusted a nobody with huge quantities of money! We are so used to live in this world where theft is either regulated and indoctrinated as normal and any competition in the scam sector is prosecuted, that a lot of us dont know how to take the minimum precautions.

In this sense I think Bitcoin is great because it will teach us a couple of lessons that we desperately need.

Well said, Hugo.

And the guy you quoted completely misunderstands what regulations are for. Regulations (even the good, voluntary ones) are not there to make people "reachable" and to make they responsible for their actions. There's no need of regulations for that, you don't need a "license" to be accountable, nor to abide your processes to arbitrary rules. Your customers just need a way to track you down if they feel you might harm them.

Quoted guy, trust me, state regulations exist only to protect established industries and lobbyists, and not only are unnecessary, they are economically harmful and ethically criminal.
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August 10, 2011, 05:16:59 PM
#12

In a free market, private 'regulators' develop and act as auditors who take responsibility (i.e. pay if sued) for the product after inspection. But with government intervention, you get worse products & higher costs.
In some cases that's true, in others it's just wishful thinking. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0112/052_print.html
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August 11, 2011, 02:18:30 AM
#13

In a free market, private 'regulators' develop and act as auditors who take responsibility (i.e. pay if sued) for the product after inspection. But with government intervention, you get worse products & higher costs.
In some cases that's true, in others it's just wishful thinking. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0112/052_print.html

Is that the article you intended to link?  It has nothing to do about regulation.

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August 11, 2011, 03:25:57 AM
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Well said, Hugo.

And the guy you quoted completely misunderstands what regulations are for. Regulations (even the good, voluntary ones) are not there to make people "reachable" and to make they responsible for their actions. There's no need of regulations for that, you don't need a "license" to be accountable, nor to abide your processes to arbitrary rules. Your customers just need a way to track you down if they feel you might harm them.

Quoted guy, trust me, state regulations exist only to protect established industries and lobbyists, and not only are unnecessary, they are economically harmful and ethically criminal.

Until you own a legitimate business, you're never going to understand. There is a BIG difference between reality and Utopian ideals. There is a BIG difference between businesses that go out of their way to prove their trust (mtgox/tradehill) and people who chose to have a business one day and chose not to have a business the next day (mybitcoin)

You can't have a free system the way you're thinking. Fraud and criminal THOUGHTS exists IN EVERYBODY. Nobody is immune to them and everyone has their breaking point. The only way to keep people honest is to give them incentive to stay honest. There is criminality in EVERY level of every race, age, social class, occupation, and yes, even in the government. It is our job to find and fix the dishonesty at the moment it's discovered in the government. It is the governments job to find and fix the dishonesty at the moment it's discovered in the territory in which it governs.

You don't have to trust me. You can keep thinking whatever you want to think. Just know that "life" will smack you in the face when your wrong. You better be right about what you preach.
hugolp
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August 11, 2011, 07:01:25 AM
#15

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Well said, Hugo.

And the guy you quoted completely misunderstands what regulations are for. Regulations (even the good, voluntary ones) are not there to make people "reachable" and to make they responsible for their actions. There's no need of regulations for that, you don't need a "license" to be accountable, nor to abide your processes to arbitrary rules. Your customers just need a way to track you down if they feel you might harm them.

Quoted guy, trust me, state regulations exist only to protect established industries and lobbyists, and not only are unnecessary, they are economically harmful and ethically criminal.

Until you own a legitimate business, you're never going to understand. There is a BIG difference between reality and Utopian ideals. There is a BIG difference between businesses that go out of their way to prove their trust (mtgox/tradehill) and people who chose to have a business one day and chose not to have a business the next day (mybitcoin)

You can't have a free system the way you're thinking. Fraud and criminal THOUGHTS exists IN EVERYBODY. Nobody is immune to them and everyone has their breaking point. The only way to keep people honest is to give them incentive to stay honest. There is criminality in EVERY level of every race, age, social class, occupation, and yes, even in the government. It is our job to find and fix the dishonesty at the moment it's discovered in the government. It is the governments job to find and fix the dishonesty at the moment it's discovered in the territory in which it governs.

You don't have to trust me. You can keep thinking whatever you want to think. Just know that "life" will smack you in the face when your wrong. You better be right about what you preach.

Whow says he doesnt? Btw, you are using the word utopia to describe something you clearly dont understand. The first rule to criticize something is understand it, you should not criticize something you dont even know about.

Nobody is saying there should be no law or no courts. Let me be clear, nobody is saying there should be no law or no courts. The question is whether the legal system should be a government monopolly. And even if you believe it should be, how long should it reach? Its utopic to give monpollistic power to one institution and trust that it will be controllable like you are claiming. Check history and tell me when that has happened. Only once please, tell me when you utopia has happened.

And btw, more than the 50% of the world trade is done based only on trust, outside of any legal jurisdiction.

As I said the problem is that the people is used to live in a bubble world and have forgotten how to behave.
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August 11, 2011, 08:27:57 AM
#16

Fraud is a definite reality, regulation makers abusing their powers is a definite reality.  Both have involved people getting killed in the past.  I don't see a lesser of two evils here. 

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August 11, 2011, 08:36:01 AM
#17

Pasteurized milk is healthy and safe. Irradiated strawberries are healthy and safe, and they taste and look the same. Should she be allowed to sell an unsafe combination of fresh dairy and contaminated fruit ? Sure, if the customers understand the risks and take full responsibility for the outcome.

As it turns out, the customers don't understand the risk, and choose not to be bothered by the issue by appointing a regulator which, imperfect and inefficient as it may be, does the job acceptably well. So well in fact, that the customer base have grown accustomed to the idea that any food they can purchase over the counter is healthy and safe. What Kris is actually doing is trying to sneak a product that does not pass the regulator's scrutiny directly to the customer base which assumes that it does. The product is thus misrepresented in the market place, and should be removed.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea that, after waiving their legal rights and understanding the risks, customers should be allowed to eat anything. Except for extreme cases like depression or cult-induced suicide, your life is your property and you should do what you want. If you have a problem with the notion that all food must be proved safe by default, and a waiver is required when unsafe food is sold, then you can, you know, start your own country where all food is presumed unsafe and it's the customer's responsibility to make sure it's ok - we had that for many centuries, it didn't worked out so well. There are many such countries in fact, no need to start another one. Anything sold in the 3rd world must be boiled and killed with fire before being eaten, and eating improper food is a major death cause there.
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August 11, 2011, 08:58:42 AM
#18

Is that the article you intended to link?  It has nothing to do about regulation.
But it has everything to do with lawsuits, which is what TTBit claims makes everything so much cheaper. There are few regulations and lots of lawsuits, and that's adding a 30% overhead to the price of the product.

I realise most of you with just rationalise this away and say that the market just isn't free enough (that's always the problem). It's the same excuse as the communist use. When things don't work out as you expected the problem is always that the implementation of the ideology hasn't been taken far enough.
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August 11, 2011, 09:24:25 AM
#19

But it has everything to do with lawsuits, which is what TTBit claims makes everything so much cheaper. There are few regulations and lots of lawsuits, and that's adding a 30% overhead to the price of the product.

The problem is the frivolous litigation environment in the States isn't it? Take out the incentive and convenience for people to sue over the most stupid of things and related costs will drop significantly. Of course it would also put a lot of lawyers out of job Cheesy

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LeFBI
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August 11, 2011, 10:08:33 AM
#20

Pasteurized milk is healthy and safe. Irradiated strawberries are healthy and safe, and they taste and look the same. Should she be allowed to sell an unsafe combination of fresh dairy and contaminated fruit ?
Have you ever even tried fresh strawberries or drank fresh raw milk? No? You should try it, it won't kill you. We are omnivorous animals and our stomach is made for fresh stuff. You can even eat fresh raw meat or steaks that were rotting for months to get mold on them.
In Italy you can get fresh ice cream made with seasonal fresh fruits and raw milk from the local milk farmer in nearly every village. Have you ever heard "Don't eat ice cream in Italy, it will make you sick"? In Vietnam you can buy fresh meat from small stalls at the roadside, and they don't use fridges. Ice cream with fresh fruits is nothing special. As long as fresh ingredients get processed and eaten asap it's no problem at all. It's not like they wait a month before they freeze the strawberries and milk.
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