Bitcoin Forum
May 25, 2019, 02:32:59 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.0 [Torrent] (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: How easy it is, that blockchain can be utilized for patient data storage?  (Read 203 times)
medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 06:56:26 AM
Last edit: May 09, 2018, 12:23:26 PM by medcrypto
 #1

Being in Clinical research Industry and working with patient data since approx. 2 decades i am very curious how the multiple groups are planning to utilize the technology for patient data storage and sharing.

Will it be actually possible considering multiple regulations regarding data safety & privacy?
1558751579
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558751579

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558751579
Reply with quote  #2

1558751579
Report to moderator
1558751579
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558751579

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558751579
Reply with quote  #2

1558751579
Report to moderator
GET 25 FREE SPINS AT REGISTRATION
GET 100% BONUS ON FIRST DEPOSIT
PLAY NOW
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1558751579
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1558751579

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1558751579
Reply with quote  #2

1558751579
Report to moderator
butka
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 392
Merit: 210


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
 #2

Blockchain technology could indeed be the solution to questions about patient data safety and privacy.

For example, patients could be given the choice to decide what data to share (store) in a public ledger, and what to keep private.

I think the vast majority of patients won't have anything against sharing their crucial data or parts of their medical history if that's going to save their lives.

For example, every medical institution should have access to patients' blood type, just in case urgent blood transfusion is needed.

On the other hand, there are alwasy delicate data (e.g., AIDS) the patients could decide to keep private, not share at all, or possibly encrypt on the blockchain and share only with medical institutions of their choosing. 
mocacinno
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1591


https://unblur.ninja =>lightning network testsite


View Profile WWW
May 09, 2018, 07:39:59 AM
Merited by Foxpup (3), hatshepsut93 (2), Xynerise (2), bones261 (1), HeRetiK (1)
 #3

I have worked in the healtcare industry myself for about 8 years in the past (i'm currently not working in the healthcare industry anymore), i do think you're touching a very delicate subject.
In the past, there were some really tough laws in place to protect patients data, and recently the laws seems to have gotten a lot tougher.

I remember having to encrypt all data that was being sent to the governement, upload it to a sftp whose keys were exchanged in person, then send the encryption key on a dvd via snail mail, and the password to unlock the key via text message, and the hash of the encrypted data in a signed letter to a different instance... I just wanted to point out that even in the past, the security measures with patient data were rather paranoid

The problem is that a blockchain is a public, immutable, trustless, decentralised ledger. Anything data you include in a block is there to stay.
  • What if the patient changes his mind? There is no way to "erase" his data
  • What if data that is considered harmless at this point in time, becomes something of great intrest/value to for example insurance companies (for example, at this moment in time, you think it might be a good idear to record your pollen alergy into a blockchain, but in 50 years pollen alergies get linked to a specific type of terminal iless and an isurance company decides to double the premiums for everybody having a pollen alergy based on this data
  • I've also heared some companies saying that anonimising the patient's data is the sollution, but what if the key gets leaked? What if one of the hospital's databases gets breached and a hacker is able to link each anonymous key to a real life person?

I'm not saying it's a bad idear, i just think a person who wants to develop such a blockchain should do their homework and think about as many attack vectors as humanly possible before writing a single line of code.

medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 11:51:33 AM
 #4

I agree and have some similar questions. I am trying to understand, Is it really so simple to utilize the blockchain in healthcare specially for the patient data.
Are there complexities which either are already taken care of or are not yet understood so not even talked about.

Also considering that this data will be global and each country has different regulations, which would be considered?

Hoping to understand this is due course of this discussion and looking forward for some experts in this field to shed lights on how this is being done currently.

I have worked in the healtcare industry myself for about 8 years in the past (i'm currently not working in the healthcare industry anymore), i do think you're touching a very delicate subject.
In the past, there were some really tough laws in place to protect patients data, and recently the laws seems to have gotten a lot tougher.

I remember having to encrypt all data that was being sent to the governement, upload it to a sftp whose keys were exchanged in person, then send the encryption key on a dvd via snail mail, and the password to unlock the key via text message, and the hash of the encrypted data in a signed letter to a different instance... I just wanted to point out that even in the past, the security measures with patient data were rather paranoid

The problem is that a blockchain is a public, immutable, trustless, decentralised ledger. Anything data you include in a block is there to stay.
  • What if the patient changes his mind? There is no way to "erase" his data
  • What if data that is considered harmless at this point in time, becomes something of great intrest/value to for example insurance companies (for example, at this moment in time, you think it might be a good idear to record your pollen alergy into a blockchain, but in 50 years pollen alergies get linked to a specific type of terminal iless and an isurance company decides to double the premiums for everybody having a pollen alergy based on this data
  • I've also heared some companies saying that anonimising the patient's data is the sollution, but what if the key gets leaked? What if one of the hospital's databases gets breached and a hacker is able to link each anonymous key to a real life person?

I'm not saying it's a bad idear, i just think a person who wants to develop such a blockchain should do their homework and think about as many attack vectors as humanly possible before writing a single line of code.

medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 11:57:43 AM
 #5

I hope for the same and am looking forward for the technology to come through.

My doubts are in regards to the complexities and regulataions to be followed and being followed.

Is it so simple as to choice of individual to share or not share data?
Is individual actually the owner of the data as in multiple cases it might be hospital?

I hope some industry experts who are working right now in blockchains dealing with patient data can shed some light on this.

Blockchain technology could indeed be the solution to questions about patient data safety and privacy.

For example, patients could be given the choice to decide what data to share (store) in a public ledger, and what to keep private.

I think the vast majority of patients won't have anything against sharing their crucial data or parts of their medical history if that's going to save their lives.

For example, every medical institution should have access to patients' blood type, just in case urgent blood transfusion is needed.

On the other hand, there are alwasy delicate data (e.g., AIDS) the patients could decide to keep private, not share at all, or possibly encrypt on the blockchain and share only with medical institutions of their choosing. 

mocacinno
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1591


https://unblur.ninja =>lightning network testsite


View Profile WWW
May 09, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
Last edit: May 09, 2018, 12:10:30 PM by mocacinno
Merited by ETFbitcoin (1), DdmrDdmr (1)
 #6


Thanks, This is what i am trying to understand. Is it really so simple to utilize the blockchain in healthcare specially for the patient data. Are there complexities which either are already taken care of or are not yet understood and not even talked about.
Also considering that this data will be global and each country has different regulations, which would be considered?

Hoping to understand this is due course of this discussion and looking forward for some experts in this field to shed lights on how this is being done currently.



Well, like i said: it's a dual answer.
Easy technically: sure, just find a competent dev and he'll be able to create a blockchain in a matter of weeks
Easy legally: nope, not by a longshot... In a lot of developed countries, the medical secret outweighs even some legal affairs.

Just do the exercise without thinking about blockchain technology... Just imagine if you were uploading data onto a medium like facebook, redit, twitter but you only had an account that was able to post data, but doesn't have the authority to edit or delete data...
Which patient data would you be willing to upload? My initial reaction would be: none... Not even with a signed informed consent from the patient, Not even the initials of your patients, Not even the internal database's private keys (which would be utterly useless without a complete data breach of your hospital),...

Being from the EU myself, i can safely say that even within the EU there would be hardly any data you could ever upload without getting into ethical or legal problems. I mean: at the time i was working in the healthcare field, there were a couple of EU countries that had a law that forbid any patient data to leave the country. You could not rent secure data storage in the US and store encrypted backups of your patient data abroad without opening yourself up to a lot of lawsuits.

I think if you're really going to continue with this plan, it might be best to contact an international law firm with experience in the healthcare business in order to assist you... Nobody on this forum (not even the ones like me, with IT healthcare experience) will be able to give you any foolproof advice.

medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 12:34:10 PM
 #7

I am 100% of the thought process that you just shared and I am not into any development and/or creating any group.

Being with the experience in the field, My aim is rather to understand how the groups currently working and advertising in this field doing so. Do they really think this is achievable(what is being promised), if so what is the process?


Thanks, This is what i am trying to understand. Is it really so simple to utilize the blockchain in healthcare specially for the patient data. Are there complexities which either are already taken care of or are not yet understood and not even talked about.
Also considering that this data will be global and each country has different regulations, which would be considered?

Hoping to understand this is due course of this discussion and looking forward for some experts in this field to shed lights on how this is being done currently.



Well, like i said: it's a dual answer.
Easy technically: sure, just find a competent dev and he'll be able to create a blockchain in a matter of weeks
Easy legally: nope, not by a longshot... In a lot of developed countries, the medical secret outweighs even some legal affairs.

Just do the exercise without thinking about blockchain technology... Just imagine if you were uploading data onto a medium like facebook, redit, twitter but you only had an account that was able to post data, but doesn't have the authority to edit or delete data...
Which patient data would you be willing to upload? My initial reaction would be: none... Not even with a signed informed consent from the patient, Not even the initials of your patients, Not even the internal database's private keys (which would be utterly useless without a complete data breach of your hospital),...

Being from the EU myself, i can safely say that even within the EU there would be hardly any data you could ever upload without getting into ethical or legal problems. I mean: at the time i was working in the healthcare field, there were a couple of EU countries that had a law that forbid any patient data to leave the country. You could not rent secure data storage in the US and store encrypted backups of your patient data abroad without opening yourself up to a lot of lawsuits.

I think if you're really going to continue with this plan, it might be best to contact an international law firm with experience in the healthcare business in order to assist you... Nobody on this forum (not even the ones like me, with IT healthcare experience) will be able to give you any foolproof advice.

mocacinno
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1591


https://unblur.ninja =>lightning network testsite


View Profile WWW
May 09, 2018, 12:59:43 PM
Merited by bones261 (1), butka (1)
 #8

I am 100% of the thought process that you just shared and I am not into any development and/or creating any group.

Being with the experience in the field, My aim is rather to understand how the groups currently working and advertising in this field doing so. Do they really think this is achievable(what is being promised), if so what is the process?

*disclaimer*: the following text reflects my personal beliefs, they talk about my gut feeling, so the following text should in no way be interpreted as an official statement

I personally believe that the altcoin/bounty subforums is filled with scams... Just pump and dumps, quick scams or worthless shitcoins. I guess a maximum of 10% of the announced projects in these subforums have some sort of legitimacy (at least, i belief a maximum of 10% of the announced tokens start with good intentions), and only a very few of those 10% actually result in a project that does what's promised. The other projects are just some get-rich-quick schemes, or just script kiddies trying to clone some coins in order to get famous.

As soon as i see a token/altcoin announcement talking about a serious subject in combination with the word ICO, bounty, campaign,... I just stop reading... It's not worth my time.
These scammers usually just pick a subject, any subject, create a colorfull ANN thread with a mock whitepaper, clone a clonecoin and try to scam the community by releasing an ICO, and try to draw community members into their madness by promising stakes of their scamcoin if they promote the hell out of it.

As far as i'm concerned, i haven't seen any believable project that combines medical data storage with a believable token... But like i said: i have an extremely short attention span when it comes to new altcoins. As soon as something (anything) seems off to me, i just walk away... It's not worth my time.

medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 09, 2018, 01:26:06 PM
 #9

Thanks for guiding and while reading your other posts i am obliged for you to spend time on my simple post.

I agree with you that multiple of these could be spam or just showing the path which can never be paved. That's why i am thinking who could be really contacted to explore some real challenges of this industry. I am 100% sure the patient data is not the key and would really like to be in contact with people who really are working or atleast plan to work in this direction to provide solutions for healthcare industry.

Let's see if something could be found or if some good experts could be located who might be interested for same. keeping my hopes high specially as i am new to this field and planning to learn.

Is there someway or some forum where i can post this query to larger audience?

Anyways Thanks again for your time. Also Considering your experience Do keep me posted if you find some people genuinely working for the cause.

I am 100% of the thought process that you just shared and I am not into any development and/or creating any group.

Being with the experience in the field, My aim is rather to understand how the groups currently working and advertising in this field doing so. Do they really think this is achievable(what is being promised), if so what is the process?

*disclaimer*: the following text reflects my personal beliefs, they talk about my gut feeling, so the following text should in no way be interpreted as an official statement

I personally believe that the altcoin/bounty subforums is filled with scams... Just pump and dumps, quick scams or worthless shitcoins. I guess a maximum of 10% of the announced projects in these subforums have some sort of legitimacy (at least, i belief a maximum of 10% of the announced tokens start with good intentions), and only a very few of those 10% actually result in a project that does what's promised. The other projects are just some get-rich-quick schemes, or just script kiddies trying to clone some coins in order to get famous.

As soon as i see a token/altcoin announcement talking about a serious subject in combination with the word ICO, bounty, campaign,... I just stop reading... It's not worth my time.
These scammers usually just pick a subject, any subject, create a colorfull ANN thread with a mock whitepaper, clone a clonecoin and try to scam the community by releasing an ICO, and try to draw community members into their madness by promising stakes of their scamcoin if they promote the hell out of it.

As far as i'm concerned, i haven't seen any believable project that combines medical data storage with a believable token... But like i said: i have an extremely short attention span when it comes to new altcoins. As soon as something (anything) seems off to me, i just walk away... It's not worth my time.

Theb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 938
Merit: 377



View Profile
May 09, 2018, 06:17:04 PM
 #10

~snip~
Had to think about this for a while and I am agreeing with you, a blockchain technology made available to the public which give them access to medical records as well as the hospital's patients information has some bad sides that can lead to abuse. What I am thinking of is that these businesses related to the industry like drug manufacturers and health insurance companies will use this information for their own personal gain. For example insurance companies will raise their fees on an area where they know more accidents are happening or drug store companies can decrease their supply from one area which has very high demand on a specific drug which in turn will increase the prices. From what I know of this companies only have limited coverage on this kinds of information, giving them the whole information can really lead to abuse of the system.

FORTUNEJACK
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 10, 2018, 07:15:26 AM
 #11

Thanks for sharing the concern which is pretty valid. my concern is rather 1 step before we even reach this point. My doubt is that can this data even be shared and/or put on the Block-chain? If yes, it will be regulated under which laws? Regulations of the country of origin of data or regulations of the company registration, etc.?

~snip~
Had to think about this for a while and I am agreeing with you, a blockchain technology made available to the public which give them access to medical records as well as the hospital's patients information has some bad sides that can lead to abuse. What I am thinking of is that these businesses related to the industry like drug manufacturers and health insurance companies will use this information for their own personal gain. For example insurance companies will raise their fees on an area where they know more accidents are happening or drug store companies can decrease their supply from one area which has very high demand on a specific drug which in turn will increase the prices. From what I know of this companies only have limited coverage on this kinds of information, giving them the whole information can really lead to abuse of the system.
Theb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 938
Merit: 377



View Profile
May 10, 2018, 10:06:52 AM
 #12

Thanks for sharing the concern which is pretty valid. my concern is rather 1 step before we even reach this point. My doubt is that can this data even be shared and/or put on the Block-chain? If yes, it will be regulated under which laws? Regulations of the country of origin of data or regulations of the company registration, etc.?
Uhmm, that is what you are proposing in the OP right ("Patient Data Storage and Sharing")? To my knowledge some countries already have some kind of laws protecting some patient information and identity, for example patient confidentiality on people who are being admitted to rehab must remain anonymous even if the rehab is done, as making their identity hidden will not let people judge his/her current or past situation. Also some countries have laws preventing the faces of mental institute patients to be shown in televisions whether it is news or documentary, as they still have the right of their privacy.

Having this kind o blockchain technology available will simple void this pre-existing laws which can deeply harm the human rights of these patients. I really don't think that we are on that part of development that we need to push through on this kind of technology as it is still not necessary, at least the way I see it.

FORTUNEJACK
      ▄▄███████▄▄
   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄
  ████ ▄▄███ ████████
 █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀█████
███████▄██▀▀▀▀▄████████
█████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████
████▄▄▄▄ █████████████
 ██████▌ ███▀████████
  ███████▄▀▄████████
   ▀█████▀▀███████▀
      ▀▀██████▀▀
         
         █
...FortuneJack.com                                             
...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE
       ▄▄█████████▄▄
    ▄█████████████████▄
  ▄█████████████████████▄
 ▄██
█████████▀███████████▄
██████████▀   ▀██████████
█████████▀       ▀█████████
████████           ████████
████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████
██████████▀   ▀██████████
 ▀██
█████████████████████▀
  ▀██
███████████████████▀
    ▀█████████████████▀
       ▀▀█████████▀▀
#JACKMATE
WIN 1 BTC
▄█████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
██████████▀█████▀██████████
███████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀███████
██████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐██████
██████░░░░██░░░██░░░░██████
█████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████
████████▄▄███████▄▄████████
███████████████████████████
███████████████████████████
▀█████████████████████████▀
medcrypto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
May 10, 2018, 10:55:57 AM
 #13

I am not proposing anything rather as you correctly said there are laws/regulations in each country which are different and even quite stringent. The example given by you are quite simple and easy laws.

The data protection laws in some countries are quite tough and difficult to follow even for general data storage that i am not sure how the companies are dealing with those while keeping data on block-chain and this is what i am trying to understand/learn.

Regards,

Thanks for sharing the concern which is pretty valid. my concern is rather 1 step before we even reach this point. My doubt is that can this data even be shared and/or put on the Block-chain? If yes, it will be regulated under which laws? Regulations of the country of origin of data or regulations of the company registration, etc.?
Uhmm, that is what you are proposing in the OP right ("Patient Data Storage and Sharing")? To my knowledge some countries already have some kind of laws protecting some patient information and identity, for example patient confidentiality on people who are being admitted to rehab must remain anonymous even if the rehab is done, as making their identity hidden will not let people judge his/her current or past situation. Also some countries have laws preventing the faces of mental institute patients to be shown in televisions whether it is news or documentary, as they still have the right of their privacy.

Having this kind o blockchain technology available will simple void this pre-existing laws which can deeply harm the human rights of these patients. I really don't think that we are on that part of development that we need to push through on this kind of technology as it is still not necessary, at least the way I see it.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!