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Author Topic: Team ponzi? Can someone shed some light on this? Edit: [Kind-of Solved]  (Read 928 times)
the joint
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August 12, 2011, 09:21:27 PM
 #1

So, excuse me if I'm having a mental lapse at the moment but...assuming no jackpot and no fees.....

If 4 people coordinated together and alone for 4 different 6-round ponzi games....couldn't all win, always?

For example, a 1 BTC deposit with 15% ROI...

1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout  --> pot = 1 BTC      
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .85 BTC   1.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .7 BTC     2.) paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .65 BTC   3.)paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .5 BTC                4.) paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .35 BTC              1.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .2 BTC                2.)paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .05 BTC              3.)paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 1.10 BTC
2.) Deposit 1 BTC -->   1.15 --> pot = .95 BTC              4.)paid
3.) Deposit 1 BTC -->   1.15 --> pot = .8 BTC                1.)paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .65 BTC              2.)paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .5 BTC                3.) paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .35 BTC              4.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .2  BTC              1.)  paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .05  BTC             2.)  paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 1.05 BTC  
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .90  BTC             3.)  paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .75  BTC             4.)  paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC  --> 1.15 --> pot = .6 BTC               1.)  paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .45 BTC             2.)  paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .3  BTC              3.)  paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .15  BTC            4.)  paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 0                       1.)  paid

Player 1   = 6 deposits and win 6.9 BTC
player 2 = 6 deposits and win 5.75 BTC
player 3 = 6 deposits and win 5.75 BTC
player 4 = 6 deposits and win 5.75 BTC

Game 2, player 2 starts and wins 6.9 BTC, all others win 5.75
Game 3, player 3 starts and wins 6.9 BTC, all others win 5.75
Game 4, player 4 starts and wins 6.9 BTC, all others win 5.75

4 game deposit for all 4 players = 24 BTC  but all win 24.15 BTC

Now this seems like a ridiculous amount of work and coordination, but scaled up, who knows....for example, a starting deposit = 100 BTC  where everyone would walk away with 15 BTC by the end

Why, and how, does this work?  Am I missing something?  Why do the total winnings end up to be more than the initial deposits, and where does the ROI come from?



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the joint
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August 12, 2011, 11:02:20 PM
 #2

Come on, I thought you all were smart  Cheesy

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August 12, 2011, 11:14:25 PM
 #3

The payout of a ponzi can't be higher than the total input. In fact, its always lower than the input because of the 10% fee to the first deposit and transaction fees from sending.

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the joint
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August 12, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
 #4

The payout of a ponzi can't be higher than the total input. In fact, its always lower than the input because of the 10% fee to the first deposit and transaction fees from sending.

So even when there's 'no fees,' there's always an obligatory 10% fee on the first deposit?   Is this the first deposit of the game or first deposit of each player?

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August 12, 2011, 11:28:49 PM
 #5

The payout of a ponzi can't be higher than the total input. In fact, its always lower than the input because of the 10% fee to the first deposit and transaction fees from sending.

So even when there's 'no fees,' there's always an obligatory 10% fee on the first deposit?   Is this the first deposit of the game or first deposit of each player?

First deposit of the game, which is from the round's creator.

Make 1 deposit and earn BTC for life! http://bitcoinpyramid.com/r/345
Play my FREE HTML5 games at: http://magigames.org  BTC donations accepted.
the joint
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August 12, 2011, 11:52:36 PM
 #6

The payout of a ponzi can't be higher than the total input. In fact, its always lower than the input because of the 10% fee to the first deposit and transaction fees from sending.

So even when there's 'no fees,' there's always an obligatory 10% fee on the first deposit?   Is this the first deposit of the game or first deposit of each player?

First deposit of the game, which is from the round's creator.

Ok but...then is my math off?

If first deposit is 1 BTC, then .9BTC ends up in the pot to begin with...

Total payout for each game is 24.05 BTC....deposit is still only 24 BTC...
24 transactions X .0005 transaction fees in = .012.....
24 transactions X .0005 transaction fees out = .012...
.012 X 2 = .024....
24.05 - .024 = 24.026....
24.026 > 24

Still not sure where I'm off...

Edit:  This would affect the total payments and amount in pot.  Nevermind.  I think I see the problem.  

the joint
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August 13, 2011, 12:12:59 AM
 #7

I'm not going toy look through everything, but I did see that the pot is wrong on the fourth deposit. You wrote 0.65, but it should be .15 less than .7, which is .55, then it changes the rest of the game...

Yes you're right, but there was a much more fundamental problem from the beginning.

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August 13, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
 #8

I like OPs maths. We're starting a /2 reverse doubler soon - you should give it a try! Bring your friends!

the joint
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August 13, 2011, 08:13:22 AM
 #9

I like OPs maths. We're starting a /2 reverse doubler soon - you should give it a try! Bring your friends!

My maths are the finest around.  I will even do your taxes.

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August 13, 2011, 09:14:40 AM
 #10

Yes you're right, but there was a much more fundamental problem from the beginning.
I think that's your only mistake. With that fixed, you get 24 coins paid in and 24 coins paid out.

I am an employee of Ripple.
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
the joint
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August 13, 2011, 09:31:33 AM
 #11

Yes you're right, but there was a much more fundamental problem from the beginning.
I think that's your only mistake. With that fixed, you get 24 coins paid in and 24 coins paid out.

If there's 10% fee on first deposit, then the whole thing is off because pot isn't 1 BTC at start, correct?  It would be .9 BTC, and that shifts everything.

My question is, where does this 10% go to?

the joint
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August 13, 2011, 09:38:45 AM
 #12

1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout  --> pot = .9 BTC      
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .75 BTC   1.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .6 BTC     2.) paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 payout --> pot = .45 BTC   3.)paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .3 BTC                4.) paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .15 BTC              1.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 0 BTC                2.)paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 1 BTC              
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .85 BTC            3.)paid
2.) Deposit 1 BTC -->   1.15 --> pot = .7 BTC              4.)paid
3.) Deposit 1 BTC -->   1.15 --> pot = .55 BTC                1.)paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .4 BTC              2.)paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .25 BTC                3.) paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .1 BTC              4.) paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 1.10  BTC              
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .95  BTC             1.)  paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .8 BTC                2.) paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .65  BTC             3.)  paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .5  BTC             4.)  paid
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC  --> 1.15 --> pot = .35 BTC               1.)  paid
1.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .2 BTC             2.)  paid
2.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .05  BTC              3.)  paid
3.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = 1.05  BTC            
4.)  Deposit 1 BTC -->  1.15 --> pot = .9                       4.) paid

Each player paid 5 times   Deposit 6 BTC  each, but each wins 5.75
5.75 X 4 = 23  BTC
.9 extra......
24 BTC in, 23.9 BTC out.....so .1 BTC (10% of initial deposit) goes where?

Edit:  Also, where does the .9 extra in the pot go?

Edit 2:  I'm going to spam now.  Join these so I can reinvest and so you can make me happy for doing math at 4:42 AM U.S. central time.  This is my greedy side.  Enjoy it.
http://bitcoinduit.com/game/viewRound.php?id=Lets_Ponz
http://bitcoinduit.com/game/viewRound.php?id=MaxJackpot
http://bitcoinduit.com/game/viewRound.php?id=Half_double

Jonathan Ryan Owens
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August 13, 2011, 11:08:22 AM
 #13

Yes you're right, but there was a much more fundamental problem from the beginning.
I think that's your only mistake. With that fixed, you get 24 coins paid in and 24 coins paid out.

If there's 10% fee on first deposit, then the whole thing is off because pot isn't 1 BTC at start, correct?  It would be .9 BTC, and that shifts everything.

My question is, where does this 10% go to?

My Coffee and my secure, distributed and backed up dual VPS fund.

Regards,
Jonathan

the joint
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August 13, 2011, 04:11:59 PM
 #14

Oh.  You coulda just said a black hole.

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